What is your race - religion - gender (Atlas Demographic Poll)

[Intell]

All I'm thinking is that I'm ing pissed that hindu is not an option.

[DavidB.]

All I'm thinking is that I'm ing pissed that hindu is not an option.

Being "ing pissed" about an Atlas poll seems... a bit much, but there's a lot of Hindus on this forum afaik, so I agree that this option should have been included.

[RINO Tom]

White evangelical male

Slavs and Jews are white I'm the US. Absolutely no one would dispute that except hardcore neo Nazis...and actually even they wouldn't for Slavs.

Aren't you ELCA (like me)?  If so, the "Evangelical" in the name bears absolutely no connection to evangelical Christian denominations ... it's definitely mainline (thank God).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

White evangelical male

Slavs and Jews are white I'm the US. Absolutely no one would dispute that except hardcore neo Nazis...and actually even they wouldn't for Slavs.

Aren't you ELCA (like me)?  If so, the "Evangelical" in the name bears absolutely no connection to evangelical Christian denominations ... it's definitely mainline (thank God).

I'm aware. I was raised ELCA but I'm now going to a non-denominational evangelical church...sort of, it's not really either evangelical or mainline, but such churches usually get lumped in as evangelical if you have to do that dichotomy and "emergent" isn't an option.

[DavidB.]

Jews are white I'm the US. Absolutely no one would dispute that except hardcore neo Nazis...

No.

[RINO Tom]

Jews are white I'm the US. Absolutely no one would dispute that except hardcore neo Nazis...

No.

Relevantly, I have one Jewish friend who'd never identify as anything but White (and would probably take offense if you labeled him as something else) and one who probably wouldn't consider himself White at all.  While the latter definitely has a darker complexion, he's certainly not as dark as someone of Indian descent or even Latino descent.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Jews are white I'm the US. Absolutely no one would dispute that except hardcore neo Nazis...

No.

Look up the racial numbers of heavily Jewish areas on the US Census.

For example here is a heavily Jewish city in Minnesota, St. Louis Park:

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[Antonio the Sixth]

White non-religious male

[Figueira]

White Jewish male. I'm surprised there aren't more of us.

[nclib]

White Jewish male. I'm surprised there aren't more of us.

I'm 3/4 Jewish blood, but non-religious, so...

white non-religious male

[Intell]

All I'm thinking is that I'm ing pissed that hindu is not an option.

Being "ing pissed" about an Atlas poll seems... a bit much, but there's a lot of Hindus on this forum afaik, so I agree that this option should have been included.

Well a better description would be mildly annoyed, but still...

[ElectionsGuy]

White non-religious male

[Higgs]

White Catholic Male

[The Other Castro]

White Jewish (Secular Humanist) Male

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

the better term is "mainline" Protestant, as in much of the country and the world it is evangelicals who represent the mainstream of Protestantism.

[President Johnson]

White atheist male.

[Tender Branson]

I'm a "White Other Male".

[dead0man]

Jews are white I'm the US. Absolutely no one would dispute that except hardcore neo Nazis...

No.

I'm going to have to agree with BRTD here.  Pale faced Jews in the US are as "white" as anybody else.   They may or may not subscribe to the generic white culture (whatever the hell that is), but that's true of a lot of non-Jewish "white" people in the US too.

[DavidB.]

Relevantly, I have one Jewish friend who'd never identify as anything but White (and would probably take offense if you labeled him as something else) and one who probably wouldn't consider himself White at all.  While the latter definitely has a darker complexion, he's certainly not as dark as someone of Indian descent or even Latino descent.

Yes, some Jews identify as white and others do not, which is true for both Ashkenazim and Mizrahim. But it does not make much sense to categorize Jews, whether Ashkenazi or not, as white. The category white, in the US and elsewhere, does not solely refer to the complexion of one's skin; it refers to a whole set of cultural norms. For instance, someone who would be considered white in Brazil could be considered black in the US.

Indeed, the idea that Ashkenazi Jews are white is something extremely recent. It does not fit history: persecution on the basis of explicitly racialized motives took place until, say, 70 years ago. As late as 1987, the US legally defined Jews as non-white. Even after WWII, quotas existed in the US to deny Jews rights US whites enjoyed, and similarly, Jews have never been considered white for most of our history in Europe. It also does not fit biology: Jews do often look differently, and this was certainly the case before the post-WWII waves of intermarriage in the Western world: one could generally tell the difference between Poles and Jews in Poland. Some of my Ashkenazi friends still look so differently compared to Dutch people that they encounter "driving while black" issues. Moreover, scientists concluded that Ashkenazi Jews can be considered "genetic brothers" of Palestinians, Lebanese and Druze. But most importantly, our traditions and our culture are not Western. They are Middle Eastern. Sure, there has been a lot of cultural contact and exchange between European Jews and non-Jews, but that does not change the fact that our traditions are non-Western. Har Sinai, where we were given the Torah, is in the Middle East. Israel is Middle Eastern. Ashkenazi Jews' "culture" might be influenced by European and US culture, but the core of what Jews have in common is Middle Eastern. Now, of course, most US Ashkenazi Jews have totally assimilated, which has rendered them culturally white and which will make them look white in others' eyes (either by choice or by simple consequence), but that cultural whiteness would soon vanish if these people were to become more traditional, think from a Jewish framework, and stand up for Jewish causes.

So the argument why Jews are not white is twofold. First, and most importantly, we are from the Middle East and the core of the framework of our traditions (influencing halacha, observance, philosophy, and "way of life") has always been non-Western. Second, we have not been perceived as white for most of our history; the idea that Jews are white is something extremely recent.

Look up the racial numbers of heavily Jewish areas on the US Census.

For example here is a heavily Jewish city in Minnesota, St. Louis Park:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I have never denied the fact that many Jews are categorized or categorize themselves as white in the US census. That, however, does not make it true.

[Torie]

Relevantly, I have one Jewish friend who'd never identify as anything but White (and would probably take offense if you labeled him as something else) and one who probably wouldn't consider himself White at all.  While the latter definitely has a darker complexion, he's certainly not as dark as someone of Indian descent or even Latino descent.

Yes, some Jews identify as white and others do not, which is true for both Ashkenazim and Mizrahim. But it does not make much sense to categorize Jews, whether Ashkenazi or not, as white. The category white, in the US and elsewhere, does not solely refer to the complexion of one's skin; it refers to a whole set of cultural norms. For instance, someone who would be considered white in Brazil could be considered black in the US.

Indeed, the idea that Ashkenazi Jews are white is something extremely recent. It does not fit history: persecution on the basis of explicitly racialized motives took place until, say, 70 years ago. As late as 1987, the US legally defined Jews as non-white. Even after WWII, quotas existed in the US to deny Jews rights US whites enjoyed, and similarly, Jews have never been considered white for most of our history in Europe. It also does not fit biology: Jews do often look differently, and this was certainly the case before the post-WWII waves of intermarriage in the Western world: one could generally tell the difference between Poles and Jews in Poland. Some of my Ashkenazi friends still look so differently compared to Dutch people that they encounter "driving while black" issues. Moreover, scientists concluded that Ashkenazi Jews can be considered "genetic brothers" of Palestinians, Lebanese and Druze. But most importantly, our traditions and our culture are not Western. They are Middle Eastern. Sure, there has been a lot of cultural contact and exchange between European Jews and non-Jews, but that does not change the fact that our traditions are non-Western. Har Sinai, where we were given the Torah, is in the Middle East. Israel is Middle Eastern. Ashkenazi Jews' "culture" might be influenced by European and US culture, but the core of what Jews have in common is Middle Eastern. Now, of course, most US Ashkenazi Jews have totally assimilated, which has rendered them culturally white and which will make them look white in others' eyes (either by choice or by simple consequence), but that cultural whiteness would soon vanish if these people were to become more traditional, think from a Jewish framework, and stand up for Jewish causes.

So the argument why Jews are not white is twofold. First, and most importantly, we are from the Middle East and the core of the framework of our traditions (influencing halacha, observance, philosophy, and "way of life") has always been non-Western. Second, we have not been perceived as white for most of our history; the idea that Jews are white is something extremely recent.

Look up the racial numbers of heavily Jewish areas on the US Census.

For example here is a heavily Jewish city in Minnesota, St. Louis Park:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I have never denied the fact that many Jews are categorized or categorize themselves as white in the US census. That, however, does not make it true.

It quite surprises me that you think of race through a cultural lens, rather than a genetic lens. Yes, I understand, that if of mixed race, one may as a result of cultural factors identify with one race or the other, ala Barack Obama. But absent that, it seems to me incontrovertible that most Jews are genetically white based on whatever the genetic boundary definitions are between the different races. Yes, I understand too, that in some sense we all have a bit of every race in us, and it really comes down to just how relatively genetically similar different genetic clusters of humans are to other clusters. I would be amazed if most Jews are not found to be genetically well within the white cluster.

[DavidB.]

It quite surprises me that you think of race through a cultural lens, rather than a genetic lens. Yes, I understand, that if of mixed race, one may as a result of cultural factors identify with one race or the other, ala Barack Obama. But absent that, it seems to me incontrovertible that most Jews are genetically white based on whatever the genetic boundary definitions are between the different races. Yes, I understand too, that in some sense we all have a bit of every race in us, and it really comes down to just how relatively genetically similar different genetic clusters of humans are to other clusters. I would be amazed if most Jews are not found to be genetically well within the white cluster.

Well, according to Wiki, "A 2007 study by Bauchet et al. found that Ashkenazi Jews were most closely clustered with Arabic North African populations when compared to Global population, and in the European structure analysis, they share similarities only with Greeks and Southern Italians, reflecting their east Mediterranean origins."

I don't care much for this argument, but even from a genetic perspective one could very well argue that Ashkenazi Jews are not white -- at least if one accepts the idea that Arabs and North Africans are not white (which does not seem too controversial an idea to me, even if it is also debatable).

[Torie]

It quite surprises me that you think of race through a cultural lens, rather than a genetic lens. Yes, I understand, that if of mixed race, one may as a result of cultural factors identify with one race or the other, ala Barack Obama. But absent that, it seems to me incontrovertible that most Jews are genetically white based on whatever the genetic boundary definitions are between the different races. Yes, I understand too, that in some sense we all have a bit of every race in us, and it really comes down to just how relatively genetically similar different genetic clusters of humans are to other clusters. I would be amazed if most Jews are not found to be genetically well within the white cluster.

Well, according to Wiki, "A 2007 study by Bauchet et al. found that Ashkenazi Jews were most closely clustered with Arabic North African populations when compared to Global population, and in the European structure analysis, they share similarities only with Greeks and Southern Italians, reflecting their east Mediterranean origins."

I don't care much for this argument, but even from a genetic perspective one could very well argue that Ashkenazi Jews are not white -- at least if one accepts the idea that Arabs and North Africans are not white (which does not seem too controversial an idea to me, even if it is also debatable).

Yeah, my impression is that Arabs are whites in good standing (except maybe down there on the Kenyan coast), also well within the cluster. But within the white cluster, there are sub clusters of course (e.g. northern European versus the Mediterranean area whites to which you refer). Heck, Indians as in from India, are labeled as white I think, rather than Asian, from a racial standpoint. It is sort of like the classification of animal species, where you have phylums as the largest clusters, and then start dropping down into sub-phylum classes, and then families, and so forth.

Here is quote from the link:

"If we have to put Indians into different major races – Asian, Caucasian, Australoid, or Black, we are forced to put them into Caucasian. And there is no smaller major race that they can be lumped into either – Negritos, Oceanians and Amerindians won’t suffice. They are closer to Caucasoids than they are to any of those other groups, so they must go into that category by default."

[DavidB.]

Here is quote from the link:

"If we have to put Indians into different major races – Asian, Caucasian, Australoid, or Black, we are forced to put them into Caucasian. And there is no smaller major race that they can be lumped into either – Negritos, Oceanians and Amerindians won’t suffice. They are closer to Caucasoids than they are to any of those other groups, so they must go into that category by default."

I understand the idea on which this view is based, but I think such a biological definition is neither meaningful nor does it describe what "race" generally means in society.

[Torie]

Here is quote from the link:

"If we have to put Indians into different major races – Asian, Caucasian, Australoid, or Black, we are forced to put them into Caucasian. And there is no smaller major race that they can be lumped into either – Negritos, Oceanians and Amerindians won’t suffice. They are closer to Caucasoids than they are to any of those other groups, so they must go into that category by default."

I understand the idea on which this view is based, but I think such a biological definition is neither meaningful nor does it describe what "race" generally means in society.

OK. Thanks for the chat.   But I am still going to call most Jews white. Deal with it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The US Census counts Arabs as White too. Dearborn, Michigan as of the last census was counted at 89.1% white, and is 41.7% Arab.