"Gay, transgender movements need a divorce"

[Blue3]

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/02/28/gay-rights-trans-rights-south-dakota-bathroom-legislation-column/80710176/



I don't agree completely with the way the author frames the issue, but it does highlight that the "T" in "LGBT" is a very different issue than the rest, and shouldn't all be lumped together.


It reminds me of some Transgender coworkers last year who didn't want the Transgender movement to be associated with the LGB or Marriage Equality movements, just seeing them as very different.

(Edited for copyright reasons - TF)

[This account no longer in use.]

I, personally, would leave this up to transgender people.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

epitome of I've got mine now feck you-itus

[Blue3]

epitome of I've got mine now feck you-itus

Except a lot of transgender people don't want to be associated with gay people.

(and some gay people never wanted to be associated with transgender people, even before their victories)


What's the rationale for keeping them together? What do they have in common? One's about sexual orientation, the other's about gender identity. Who you love versus what you identify yourself as.

[Thunderbird is the word]

epitome of I've got mine now feck you-itus

Except a lot of transgender people don't want to be associated with gay people.

(and some gay people never wanted to be associated with transgender people, even before their victories)


What's the rationale for keeping them together? What do they have in common? One's about sexual orientation, the other's about gender identity. Who you love versus what you identify yourself as.

I guess there always was just enough overlap though maybe in the past it flowed from the assumption that all transwomen were basically just effemenine gay man and transmen were basically butch lesbians, both of which are obviously false.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Of course the two movements shouldn't be lumped together, it never made sense to begin with.

[Green Line]

Yes.  The lumping together of the two movements has helped encourage unfortunate stereotypes about gays and lesbians.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What is this obsession with splitting up progressive movements based on narrow parochialisms and, as Crabcake said, "I got mine" mentality? So what if the two have their own separate struggles, why would it prevent them from working together to tear down oppressive gender and sexual norms?

[Blue3]

What is this obsession with splitting up progressive movements based on narrow parochialisms and, as Crabcake said, "I got mine" mentality? So what if the two have their own separate struggles, why would it prevent them from working together to tear down oppressive gender and sexual norms?

Because they never shared the same issues to begin with?

Maybe we should lump together the Environmentalist movement, the Vegan movement, and the Pro-Life movement. They all want to protect life, don't they?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The article is terrible, but I agree with the initial idea. The issues involved are too separate and there's just no point in lumping them into an omnibus group.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Regardless of the pluses and minuses of the rest of the article, this sentiment is pure reactionary agitprop.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Gay to trans is like apple to orange. The identifiers are based on different things and they are affected by different issues. At the same time, they're both fruits... and sometimes it's politically advantageous for the fruits to stick together.

[afleitch]

Terrible article. Valid opinion.

Probably best to give a few bullet points that I don’t mind expanding upon if asked.

1.There is an element of trans activism that is so focused on ‘trans v cis’ that gays and lesbians are somehow ‘privileged’ by being 'cis' Tell that to a kid who's had the crap beaten out of them. Stop lobbing shots over the wall at your own allies.

2. Not being attracted to trans men doesn’t make a gay man transphobic.

3. Likewise there’s an element in trans activism that is actually quite conservative with respect to gender/sex; that you should be ‘fixed’ to one, whether it’s the one you were born as or whether it’s the one you were supposed to be. You must confirm in body, outlook and even mannerism to one sex. If you’re a trans woman, then you should walk this way, wear this, have you hair like that etc. You should conform to a perceived femininity that is actually manufactured and patriarchal. That’s why there’s been a lot of bad blood with feminism. That element of trans activism isn’t at all ‘queer’ because it doesn’t leave space for gender fluidity or non-conformity. It can be anti-drag etc.

In general there's an annoying offshoot of trans activism that's picking fights with the wrong people often over nothing more than semantics. Most trans people I know think it's a load of sh!te but unfortunately the trans movement is gathering speed in 'teh interwebs' era which means it's being fashioned and shaped by a tremendous amount of hot air. It suffers from that.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

quite the opposite. imo lgbt+ issues should be reconsolidated with gender issues

[ilikeverin]

No, of course not.  Even putting aside the original article's gigantic serving of transphobia, it's a crazy idea.  Trans people are our brothers, sisters, and siblings in arms.  Regardless of our specific goals, our aims are the same: the dismantlement of harmful and unfair notions of gender and sex.  For LGB people, it's the idea that what your gender is and what gender(s) you're attracted to are inherently correlated.  For T people, it's the idea that your biological sex (well, actually, as the author of the original article put it, the conception of biological sex known by a "middle schooler who passed science" - i.e., a woefully incomplete one) and your gender are inherently correlated.  To borrow Andrew's colorful language, I feel very much that I, as someone "who's had the crap beaten out of them" (actually, no one was physically violent, but meh) feel very much that we should aid others who've "had the crap beaten out of them" for what amount to very similar reasons: we didn't behave how people think we "should" given their perceptions of our sex and gender.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

1.There is an element of trans activism that is so focused on ‘trans v cis’ that gays and lesbians are somehow ‘privileged’ by being 'cis' Tell that to a kid who's had the crap beaten out of them. Stop lobbing shots over the wall at your own allies.

privileges overlap…? the notion that gay people can't have cis privilege is as silly as the notion that poor people can't have white privilege.

[Penelope]

What a terrible, terrible article. Pretty disgustingly transphobic.

'Transgender issues' should be understood to be different, since they revolve around a person's gender identity and not their sexual orientation. But as a political movement, LGBT+ works towards common goals. And the article is such bullsh-t. It's just blatantly trying to justify the 'f-ck you, got mine' mentality that Crabcake mentioned. Very sad.

[Zioneer]

Here's the way I see it, those who hate LGB people generally hate trans people just as much, so it's worth it to stick together to present a united front against the bigots. Maybe you don't feel you have much in common, but to the bigots, you have everything in common, so you should unite to stop the bigots from causing harm to all of you.

Of course, I'm a cis white male, so perhaps my opinion isn't that useful in this context.

[Bojack Horseman]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

So much for having changed...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

Please tell me you were just trying to be edgy and (quote obviously) failed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

quite the opposite. imo lgbt+ issues should be reconsolidated with gender issues

^^^^ Exactly.

Afleitch raises valid criticisms, but I'm confident most transgender activists don't fall into these obvious mistakes.

Wolverine should STFU.

[Zioneer]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

So you're awful and don't understand the first thing about transgender people is what you're saying.

[This account no longer in use.]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

Please, tell me more about how grossly misinformed you are.

[RI]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

It's not popular around here, but I more-or-less agree with you about transgenderism and BIID (the fact that they used the term "gender confirmation surgery" at the Oscars last night was both absurd and terrifying), though that's not the only thing at play here.

We're seeing a race to the bottom in the atomizing of society where everyone has their own special category to make them feel unique and different both because they were repeatedly taught that by their parents and teachers, and they don't have any other sort of positive affirmation other than uniting themselves to the social crusaders of the past whom secular society has canonized. The divorce of the academic terms of sex-and-gender and gender-and-personality only enable the mentally ill and those who feel a generalized disconnect from society to scapegoat their anatomy and deform themselves surgically to attain the special attention they were conditioned to crave. If a person feels alone, depressed, and worthless, people ostracize them, but if they feel similarly and attribute it to their genitalia, then suddenly they're "brave" and "beautiful" souls who we need to rally around, despite the fact that they were that all along, they just didn't have anyone to tell them that. We've lost the ability to communicate the inherent worth of humanity, seeing only its darkness. We've lost the language of the spiritual, and all that remains is our base physicality. Changing your outside won't fix a problem on the inside.