"Gay, transgender movements need a divorce"

[This account no longer in use.]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

It's not popular around here, but I more-or-less agree with you about transgenderism and BIID (the fact that they used the term "gender confirmation surgery" at the Oscars last night was both absurd and terrifying), though that's not the only thing at play here.

We're seeing a race to the bottom in the atomizing of society where everyone has their own special category to make them feel unique and different both because they were repeatedly taught that by their parents and teachers, and they don't have any other sort of positive affirmation other than uniting themselves to the social crusaders of the past whom secular society has canonized. The divorce of the academic terms of sex-and-gender and gender-and-personality only enable the mentally ill and those who feel a generalized disconnect from society to scapegoat their anatomy and deform themselves surgically to attain the special attention they were conditioned to crave. If a person feels alone, depressed, and worthless, people ostracize them, but if they feel similarly and attribute it to their genitalia, then suddenly they're "brave" and "beautiful" souls who we need to rally around, despite the fact that they were that all along, they just didn't have anyone to tell them that. We've lost the ability to communicate the inherent worth of humanity, seeing only its darkness. We've lost the language of the spiritual, and all that remains is our base physicality. Changing your outside won't fix a problem on the inside.

https://www.reddit.com/r/theredpill

[Virginiá]

This thread's very existence has become offensive

[Marokai Backbeat]

The vast majority of trans individuals do not crave attention. Quite the opposite.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I'm unsure.  I support transgender people but we need to move away from pressuring people who might simply be ashamed of their body and confused about their identity into identifying as transgender.

Even that statement will draw ire from some people.

Also... classifying homosexuality as a "gender issue" won't work.  Gender issues are synonymous with womens' issues and men discussing their own gender issues is laughed at, scorned, maligned, etc.  If we aren't told "men don't have issues you male privileged f**k..." we're told "MAN UP AND DEAL WITH IT"

So until men can discuss men's issues in a safe setting without being ridiculed from every angle, homosexuality should remain a sexuality issue.

[Bojack Horseman]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

So much for having changed...

Well it's not like you were going to speak to me again anyway.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Even if transgenderism is some kind of body dysmorphic condition that also affects people who wish they were born limbless (I'm no doctor), what on earth is the harm in letting people do what they need to do to feel better about their life? What is the harm in respecting their wishes and treating them with dignity and respect? It will have no measurable impact on a cis person's life if a trans person asks to be identified using a different pronoun or seeks out physical surgery. And as long as people are actively antagonizing members of the trans community, there's enough reason to see that allies and activism continue to be necessary.

So I guess I don't really understand why it matters where it comes from. It's clearly a lived experience for a significant number of people who receive pushback at every turn. That's enough for me, even if I admit to not understanding it and initially reacting against it in knee-jerk fashion years ago. I can see why it may make small-minded people uncomfortable, but Christ—get over it. A privileged person's discomfort is worth a lot less than the constant bullsh-t transfolk have to go through because of this unrationable discomfort.

[RI]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial." 

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

It's not popular around here, but I more-or-less agree with you about transgenderism and BIID (the fact that they used the term "gender confirmation surgery" at the Oscars last night was both absurd and terrifying), though that's not the only thing at play here.

We're seeing a race to the bottom in the atomizing of society where everyone has their own special category to make them feel unique and different both because they were repeatedly taught that by their parents and teachers, and they don't have any other sort of positive affirmation other than uniting themselves to the social crusaders of the past whom secular society has canonized. The divorce of the academic terms of sex-and-gender and gender-and-personality only enable the mentally ill and those who feel a generalized disconnect from society to scapegoat their anatomy and deform themselves surgically to attain the special attention they were conditioned to crave. If a person feels alone, depressed, and worthless, people ostracize them, but if they feel similarly and attribute it to their genitalia, then suddenly they're "brave" and "beautiful" souls who we need to rally around, despite the fact that they were that all along, they just didn't have anyone to tell them that. We've lost the ability to communicate the inherent worth of humanity, seeing only its darkness. We've lost the language of the spiritual, and all that remains is our base physicality. Changing your outside won't fix a problem on the inside.

https://www.reddit.com/r/theredpill

Hahahahaha. Are you f[inks]ing kidding me? Could you at least pretend you're not 13? If you think I have anything remotely in common with those who worship at the altar of physicality, view people as only as means to selfish ends, and completely despise women to their core, then you don't know a thing about me.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

lmao wolverine

lmao realisticidealist

We should definitely discount the body of medical evidence that supports transitioning because it triggers you and your weird quasi-mystic ramblings, or something.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial." 

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

It's not popular around here, but I more-or-less agree with you about transgenderism and BIID (the fact that they used the term "gender confirmation surgery" at the Oscars last night was both absurd and terrifying), though that's not the only thing at play here.

We're seeing a race to the bottom in the atomizing of society where everyone has their own special category to make them feel unique and different both because they were repeatedly taught that by their parents and teachers, and they don't have any other sort of positive affirmation other than uniting themselves to the social crusaders of the past whom secular society has canonized. The divorce of the academic terms of sex-and-gender and gender-and-personality only enable the mentally ill and those who feel a generalized disconnect from society to scapegoat their anatomy and deform themselves surgically to attain the special attention they were conditioned to crave. If a person feels alone, depressed, and worthless, people ostracize them, but if they feel similarly and attribute it to their genitalia, then suddenly they're "brave" and "beautiful" souls who we need to rally around, despite the fact that they were that all along, they just didn't have anyone to tell them that. We've lost the ability to communicate the inherent worth of humanity, seeing only its darkness. We've lost the language of the spiritual, and all that remains is our base physicality. Changing your outside won't fix a problem on the inside.

https://www.reddit.com/r/theredpill

Hahahahaha. Are you f[inks]ing kidding me? Could you at least pretend you're not 13? If you think I have anything remotely in common with those who worship at the altar of physicality,

trans denialism is a form of "worshiping at the altar of physicality". a different form from trp, but…

[Ban my account ffs!]

Yeah I see here a battle between what's inside vs. what's outside.  What's immaterial vs. what's material.

I see the transgender movement arguing that what's inside is all that matters while the redpillers think what's outside defines what is inside.

I agree more or less that what's inside matters more...but what's outside matters too.

I think the reaction many gays have to transgender (especially male to female because TRAITOR!) has to do with gays not only having had to struggle with discrimination by society for thousands of years (and in the cases of being accepted by traditional societies, almost always meaning having to identify as women or effeminate)... but also having to learn to accept ourselves for who we are.  We are men attracted to sexually and romantically to other men.  When you're only 2% of a population, that is hard to do.

So we're just beginning to accept who we are and were born as in aggregate.. and we're being told to respect those who cannot accept who they were born as and to respect their need to change themselves into something else... something we have STRONGLY avoided.

If you really think it's about "I got mine Jack" then you're shallow and you refuse to acknowledge some of the most important parts of the homosexual movement you claim or demand to be a part of.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well it's not like you were going to speak to me again anyway.

I am not obligated to speak to you, especially after the horrible posts you keep making.

Remind us again how Republicans are hateful and bigoted people, but we should give you a free pass for transphobia and direct denial of medical facts because you're a liberal Democrat

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Remind us again how Republicans are hateful and bigoted people, but we should give you a free pass for transphobia and direct denial of medical facts because you're a liberal Democrat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

[Reluctant Republican]

Even if transgenderism is some kind of body dysmorphic condition that also affects people who wish they were born limbless (I'm no doctor), what on earth is the harm in letting people do what they need to do to feel better about their life? What is the harm in respecting their wishes and treating them with dignity and respect? It will have no measurable impact on a cis person's life if a trans person asks to be identified using a different pronoun or seeks out physical surgery. And as long as people are actively antagonizing members of the trans community, there's enough reason to see that allies and activism continue to be necessary.

So I guess I don't really understand why it matters where it comes from. It's clearly a lived experience for a significant number of people who receive pushback at every turn. That's enough for me, even if I admit to not understanding it and initially reacting against it in knee-jerk fashion years ago. I can see why it may make small-minded people uncomfortable, but Christ—get over it. A privileged person's discomfort is worth a lot less than the constant bullsh-t transfolk have to go through because of this unrationable discomfort.

I more or less agree with this. I do think it's probably a quirk in the brain( though for all I know homosexuality is as well. I'm gay and like being so, but who's to say it's not due to a misfire or something) but keep in mind Trans folks have believed for their entire life they are the wrong sex physically. Their very identity is at odds with their physical body. Even if there was a magic pill they could take to become "cured" you're effectively destroying what they've always known about themselves. It seems to me that would be very psychologically damaging to them, more so than Gender reassignment surgery or whatever else they use to fit more into what they perceive themselves as.

Effectively what I think people who are arguing for treating Transgenderism as a mental disorder are advocating is the destruction of those people's identity and foundation. That's a terrible cure.

[Bojack Horseman]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well it's not like you were going to speak to me again anyway.

I am not obligated to speak to you, especially after the horrible posts you keep making.

Remind us again how Republicans are hateful and bigoted people, but we should give you a free pass for transphobia and direct denial of medical facts because you're a liberal Democrat

I think it's more of me moderating and my own party leaving me in the dust. Maybe it'll change, maybe it won't, but for now, I and many others are feeling like the line where medicine ends and New Age Hippie Special Snowflake bulls**it begins is being blurred.

[This account no longer in use.]

Again, Wolverine, even if it is a disorder, why shouldn't we let transgender people get gender reassignment surgery? It's not harming them, it's not harming most sane people.

[Simfan34]

Very interesting issue that I think deserves to be looked at much more closely. This is a point many people have asked for quite some time now and it's worth questioning whether such bandwagoning is truly appropriate, or if it denies the public sphere a necessary discussion. Thankfully there are people like realisticidealist who willing to have this discussion on what what till now has been meekly accepted progressive orthodoxy and actually delve beyond mere "feeling" into the realm of logic and reason. One of the leading voices in this regard has been Dr John McHugh, formerly of Johns Hopkins. It will be interesting if the other side will be willing to engage in such discourse or simply retreat back into their defense mechanism of "intolerance of intolerance" as has been their style.

What is happening in South Dakota, though?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Very interesting issue that I think deserves to be looked at much more closely. This is a point many people have asked for quite some time now and it's worth questioning whether such bandwagoning is truly appropriate, or if it denies the public sphere a necessary discussion. Thankfully there are people like realisticidealist who willing to have this discussion on what what till now has been meekly accepted progressive orthodoxy and actually delve beyond mere "feeling" into the realm of logic and reason. One of the leading voices in this regard has been Dr John McHugh, formerly of Johns Hopkins. It will be interesting if the other side will be willing to engage in such discourse or simply retreat back into their defense mechanism of "intolerance of intolerance" as has been their style.

What is happening in South Dakota, though?

With respect, I don't see what "progress" can be made by encouraging a bunch of cis people to sit around a circle and discuss why trans people might be wrong.

They've lived it. We haven't. I defer to them to decide what courses of action are in their best interest. Disagreeing with what they decide is necessarily misplaced, unfounded, and a waste of energy because we don't know what it's like.

[Figueira]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial." 

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

It's not popular around here, but I more-or-less agree with you about transgenderism and BIID (the fact that they used the term "gender confirmation surgery" at the Oscars last night was both absurd and terrifying), though that's not the only thing at play here.

We're seeing a race to the bottom in the atomizing of society where everyone has their own special category to make them feel unique and different both because they were repeatedly taught that by their parents and teachers, and they don't have any other sort of positive affirmation other than uniting themselves to the social crusaders of the past whom secular society has canonized. The divorce of the academic terms of sex-and-gender and gender-and-personality only enable the mentally ill and those who feel a generalized disconnect from society to scapegoat their anatomy and deform themselves surgically to attain the special attention they were conditioned to crave. If a person feels alone, depressed, and worthless, people ostracize them, but if they feel similarly and attribute it to their genitalia, then suddenly they're "brave" and "beautiful" souls who we need to rally around, despite the fact that they were that all along, they just didn't have anyone to tell them that. We've lost the ability to communicate the inherent worth of humanity, seeing only its darkness. We've lost the language of the spiritual, and all that remains is our base physicality. Changing your outside won't fix a problem on the inside.

https://www.reddit.com/r/theredpill

Hahahahaha. Are you f[inks]ing kidding me? Could you at least pretend you're not 13? If you think I have anything remotely in common with those who worship at the altar of physicality, view people as only as means to selfish ends, and completely despise women to their core, then you don't know a thing about me.

If the other members of Smith's generation are anything like Smith, then I have a huge amount of hope for the world.

Anyway, CrabCakes, I'm sorry some people here are so terrible.

[kcguy]

This isn't something I've thought out, so I don't know how coherent it will be, so here goes.


I agree with the statement that homosexuality is at least partially a gender issue.  It wasn't that long ago that people thought in terms of "a man's job" or "women's work".  I think that's why earlier older generations couldn't wrap their heads around homosexuality--either it would require a woman to be a breadwinner or a man to keep house--and many considered it self-evident that such a breakdown of traditional roles would never work.  In that sense, I think transgender issues share a trait with gay rights issues, in that both challenge in different ways a pre-1965 idea of binary gender roles.

A second thing that gay and transgendered people have in common is the concept of "coming out".  Minorities overwhelmingly come from families with minorities.  The same isn't true of either gay or trans people.  We often begin our identities by telling our families that we're not like them.  It's an unique experience that both groups can relate to.  (I'm sure there must be other groups that experience this, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.  I mean, I could come out as left-handed, but who the heck cares?)

That being said, the issues are not the same.  When I walk down the street, it's not necessarily obvious that I'm gay in the same way it's obvious for many mtf trans people.  And no one real cares anymore what restroom I use, although. . .I'm still old enough to remember when politicians could wring their hands about the horror of gay soldiers showering with straight soldiers.

I don't know the details of the South Dakota law, but I assume it says that transgendered people should use the restroom to match the genitals they were born with.  I assume the idea is to require mtf trans people to use men's restrooms.  Of course, not surprisingly, they haven't really put any thought into ftm trans people.  This is probably because ftms are less obvious; testosterone injections increase musculature, lower the voice, and encourage facial hair.  Other than being shorter on average than cis men, ftms look stereotypically male.  I'm guessing Daugaard's law would require these hairy muscular deep-voiced folks to use the ladies' room.  I can't wait to see the Republican reaction to that.

In response to the original question, no, I don't think the two movements should be separated.  The gay rights movement wouldn't have gotten anywhere without straight allies, and we owe it to others to pay it forward, although I would be the first to admit that I don't do nearly as much as I should.  But if we are going to pay it forward (gay it forward?), the transgendered community should be the obvious beneficiaries, because they are still experiencing the same kind of crud we gays were not so long ago and because we understand some of the things they're going through better than anyone else.


I hope that wasn't too rambling.

[Virginiá]

In response to the original question, no, I don't think the two movements should be separated.  The gay rights movement wouldn't have gotten anywhere without straight allies, and we owe it to others to pay it forward, although I would be the first to admit that I don't do nearly as much as I should.  But if we are going to pay it forward (gay it forward?), the transgendered community should be the obvious beneficiaries, because they are still experiencing the same kind of crud we gays were not so long ago and because we understand some of the things they're going through better than anyone else.

I hope that wasn't too rambling.

Nope. Decent post.

I think we can all agree that we have been, and are, fighting for equality. People nitpicking all these little reasons of why the issues are "different" is just pretty lame. We all want the same end goal more or less and we are more effective together than alone.

To suddenly ditch transgendered people because "we got ours" would be shameful. I could probably type a novella about why, but it should be pretty obvious why it's wrong.

[Hydera]

Yeah I see here a battle between what's inside vs. what's outside.  What's immaterial vs. what's material.

I see the transgender movement arguing that what's inside is all that matters while the redpillers think what's outside defines what is inside.

I agree more or less that what's inside matters more...but what's outside matters too.

I think the reaction many gays have to transgender (especially male to female because TRAITOR!) has to do with gays not only having had to struggle with discrimination by society for thousands of years (and in the cases of being accepted by traditional societies, almost always meaning having to identify as women or effeminate)... but also having to learn to accept ourselves for who we are.  We are men attracted to sexually and romantically to other men.  When you're only 2% of a population, that is hard to do.

So we're just beginning to accept who we are and were born as in aggregate.. and we're being told to respect those who cannot accept who they were born as and to respect their need to change themselves into something else... something we have STRONGLY avoided.

If you really think it's about "I got mine Jack" then you're shallow and you refuse to acknowledge some of the most important parts of the homosexual movement you claim or demand to be a part of.

Ignoring the yuck factor especially towards transwomen who are not fortunate enough to pass.

As somebody whos trans, some Gays don't like transwomen ranked from most to least is because.

1. General feeling that they want to keep distance between them those of the other sex(as they have done with lesbian women).

2. Perception that transgender people are bandwagoning off the gay rights movement.

3. As you said, some gay men think transwomen are traitors by transitioning to female especially if they might have a lot of gay friends.

 For Straight guys its usually.

1.  Some religion bullsh**t

2. Fear that finding passable transwomen attractive will somehow make them gay

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Yeah I see here a battle between what's inside vs. what's outside.  What's immaterial vs. what's material.

I see the transgender movement arguing that what's inside is all that matters while the redpillers think what's outside defines what is inside.

I agree more or less that what's inside matters more...but what's outside matters too.

I think the reaction many gays have to transgender (especially male to female because TRAITOR!) has to do with gays not only having had to struggle with discrimination by society for thousands of years (and in the cases of being accepted by traditional societies, almost always meaning having to identify as women or effeminate)... but also having to learn to accept ourselves for who we are.  We are men attracted to sexually and romantically to other men.  When you're only 2% of a population, that is hard to do.

So we're just beginning to accept who we are and were born as in aggregate.. and we're being told to respect those who cannot accept who they were born as and to respect their need to change themselves into something else... something we have STRONGLY avoided.

If you really think it's about "I got mine Jack" then you're shallow and you refuse to acknowledge some of the most important parts of the homosexual movement you claim or demand to be a part of.

That's not what it is, though. Trans people aren't changing their gender, their changing their sex to get in line with it. CrabCake, Hydera, Windis, etc. have always been women. They're not men trying to become women.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. Transgenderism is pretty much a form of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where an otherwise healthy person feels intense hatred for a part of their body and wants to hack it off. There are people who think they should have been born an amputee and have their legs cut off, And the one woman who thought she should have been born blind, so she poured drain cleaner in her eyes to make it so.

Being gay is genetic and biological. I have two lesbian aunts, a gay uncle, four gay cousins, and I'm gay. It runs in my family. Transgender is just another one of today's "Special Snowflake" labels, just like these people that say they're not male or female and walk around wearing a men's muscle shirt and a skirt at the same time. It's just as ridiculous as the man who thinks he was supposed to be born a dog, so he wears a collar, eats Alpo out of a bowl on the floor, plays with chew toys, and sleeps in a doghouse, and Rachel Dolezel in Spokane who's always "identified" as black when she's clearly white and calls herself "transracial."  

I absolutely support the bill in South Dakota, and I hope Daugaard signs it. It's time that we as Democrats get back to reality and let this joke of a movement die out. "Ze" and "Zir" are not real pronouns, and should not be demanded or accepted. Whatever happened to common sense? The one paragraph in that article says it best:

Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender.

Whatever happened to you talking to some therapist and having a huge change of heart? Take a look at this:

Neuroscience Proves What We've Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum - http://huff.to/1ynkswR


As to the topic at hand - I don't really care, whatever is best for stopping discrimination in the marketplace and the workplace I guess. Aside from the bathroom issue (I support additional unisex facilities over letting people use the bathroom for their 'new gender' due to public safety concerns, just because a major case of assault hasn't happened doesn't mean one won't happen in time) and believing wedding-related businesses/officials should be granted reasonable religious accommodations, I have nothing against the LGBT movement as I have accepted equal marriage as settled law.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Yeah I see here a battle between what's inside vs. what's outside.  What's immaterial vs. what's material.

I see the transgender movement arguing that what's inside is all that matters while the redpillers think what's outside defines what is inside.

I agree more or less that what's inside matters more...but what's outside matters too.

I think the reaction many gays have to transgender (especially male to female because TRAITOR!) has to do with gays not only having had to struggle with discrimination by society for thousands of years (and in the cases of being accepted by traditional societies, almost always meaning having to identify as women or effeminate)... but also having to learn to accept ourselves for who we are.  We are men attracted to sexually and romantically to other men.  When you're only 2% of a population, that is hard to do.

So we're just beginning to accept who we are and were born as in aggregate.. and we're being told to respect those who cannot accept who they were born as and to respect their need to change themselves into something else... something we have STRONGLY avoided.

If you really think it's about "I got mine Jack" then you're shallow and you refuse to acknowledge some of the most important parts of the homosexual movement you claim or demand to be a part of.

That's not what it is, though. Trans people aren't changing their gender, their changing their sex to get in line with it. CrabCake, Hydera, Windis, etc. have always been women. They're not men trying to become women.

I consider physically changing your sex to be "changing who you are."  Again, I don't believe only what's on the inside counts.  If you are a female inside but were born a male, then you have to accept that there is a mismatch.  You are changing who you were born as in order to make the inside align with the outside.

I didn't say that it was wrong... I just said it is difficult for many gays, including myself, to accept and support because we have had such a strong desire to accept ourselves for who we are and to resist changing ourselves even when it would make things easier for us socially. 

One example is the bathroom issue.  Trans people want to use the changing/locker room of the gender they identify as even if they have not transitioned at all.  For instance, in the case of a male to female transgender woman, they will argue that they feel uncomfortable changing in the men's locker room.

As a gay it is hard to sympathize.  We had to change around other men despite our sexual attraction to men when that is the entire reason such rooms are separated in the first place.  Not only did you have to hide a potential erection but deal with the fear that your body might out you. 

But you can't just have a locker room for gays because they'd all be consorting with each other.  So you just have to deal with it.

The point of my posts in this thread is to point out that the issues facing homosexuals are often very different than those facing transgender people.  Often the outcomes and goals of homosexuals are directly at odds with those of transgender... and this is where flare ups are occurring.

This idea that Trans people are just like gays or lesbians is false.. because a trans person can still be straight, gay, or bi.  They are not sexual minorities.  They are gender minorities.  And while gender and sex are closely linked, and so should the gay and trans movements be closely linked, we need to have an honest discussion about our differences and accept them.

[afleitch]

I think (and I've seen this with a lot of older gays) it can be very uncomfortable to have to hear the language of the trans movement in particular when it comes to the need to 'correct' or 'fix' or 'conform' the body through surgery and cosmetics. Those are emotive concepts for people who were and still are subject to pseudoscientific attempts to 'fix' their sexual orientation to 'match' their physical sex.