Opinion of Bill Clinton as a president and as a person

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For having Hillary as a wife and cheating on her only sometimes he deserve a medal.

This is why I prefer good, honest open marriages.

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When we're considering Clinton as a political player then he's obviously a bastard. As of his personal life, I don't think it's really much worse than many other married men.

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When we're considering Clinton as a political player then he's obviously slick and ruthless a bastard. As of his personal life, I don't think it's really much worse than many other married men.

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When we're considering Clinton as a political player then he's obviously a bastard. As of his personal life, I don't think it's really much worse than many other married men.

how misandrist of you

Married married women too, actually. A lot of marriages experiences problems with infidelity. Beside, sleeping around by itself hardly makes anybody a horrible person. There are many other factors to consider.

That's why I prefer honest open marriages.

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'Open marriages' expect less of people. They are 'honest' at the cost of serving any coherent function in personal development or discipline. If you don't want to commit to at least attempting fidelity, don't get married.

Let's dispel the fiction that sexual monogamy is a precondition for having a strong relationship, marital or not. Some people needs monogamy in marriage, others don't. It's a matter of preference and personal morality, not a rule. Marriage is really much complex matter than just this. You may dislike it, I may be open to this, it's a matter of our individual outlooks and it has nothing to do with other people. Also I really think it's much more honest, and less costly, if two married people are open about this between themselves rather than one side proclaiming fidelity and cheating on side. So much for "discipline".

And what "personal development" has to do with this anyway?

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I could give two sh**ts about the Lewinsky scandal, that was between consenting adults.

Actually, that was of dubious ethics at best. He was a boss, she was an employee.

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'Open marriages' expect less of people. They are 'honest' at the cost of serving any coherent function in personal development or discipline. If you don't want to commit to at least attempting fidelity, don't get married.

Let's dispel the fiction that sexual monogamy is a precondition for having a strong relationship, marital or not. Some people needs monogamy in marriage, others don't. It's a matter of preference and personal morality, not a rule. Marriage is really much complex matter than just this. You may dislike it, I may be open to this, it's a matter of our individual outlooks and it has nothing to do with other people. Also I really think it's much more honest, and less costly, if two married people are open about this between themselves rather than one side proclaiming fidelity and cheating on side. So much for "discipline".

And what "personal development" has to do with this anyway?

1. Personal morality is about rules.

Yes and you are more than welcome to have your set or rules to follow.

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I must strongly disagree with the claim that martial fidelity is some sort of a limitus test when it comes to being a "good person". I'm sorry, but I can't not think of it as a very narrow viewpoint. Also, I can't agree with fidelity being another absolute limitus test to have a good marriage and care about your spouse if the two are honest, for, as I've stated before, marriage is much more of a complex affair than bed issues.

But hey, you are entitled to your views, so am I. The difference between us is that your set or moral rules is utterly rigid, while I prefer to think of it as a matter of personal choice and who the hell am I to judge? Some people can't have a successful marriage or other kind of a relationship without sexual fidelity, others find more things as important in their partnership. That's exactly why I'm not into "not being a moral relativism". I dislike the term anyway, because it implies that people who have more relaxed approach are somewhat "less moral". Like morality was limited to bed matters.

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Like morality was limited to bed matters.

That's not what I'm claiming (the thing about 'trying to be good' was a general principle that I was applying, and I really don't see how that wasn't the obvious reading of what I said). The rest of your post comes from a perspective with which I inherently, fundamentally disagree and I'd thus rather not engage with it because doing so won't lead to further mutual understanding.

I certainly agree that "trying to be good" is a great general principle. My only point was that what good for some people is not necessarily good to others. It's one thing to have a rigid set of moral values (I'm not implying you are "rigid" in this regard) and other to expect everyone to follow and, if they don't, simply condemn them as somehow worse than oneselves (and I'm not implying this about you either, but given the opportunity I just feel this is a point that should be made more often). The "golden rule" about treating other people like you'd like for them to treat you is a great idea when we assume that it means being good and decent to each other. But it's an awful thing when you get into specifics.

Don't take me wrong: I do respect your position on those particular specifics even if I can't agree with you.

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Out of interest why is he responsible for Iraq?

I see at least some responsibility here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

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I think he was a pretty bad President whose accomplishments were almost entirely just taking credit for Republican initiatives

The welfare reform is a very good example. It was a Republican initiative, but Clinton signed it and started to claim "I reformed the welfare".

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As a person, he's definitely likeable, but mostly a waste. 

Good point. One can be likelable yet still a horrible human being at the same time.

On the reverse: I don't find Hillary particulary likeable, but she's certainly a better person.