Sexual Orientation Determined by Genes

[Joe Republic]

Assuming the stack of scientific evidence is to be believed, that is.  Fortunately for me (lazy SOB that I am), some of it has already been posted variously throughout this thread.

Do you deny that homosexuality is predominantly genetic?

[A18]

So why does God make people gay via their genes?

So why does God make people criminals via their genes?

[Joe Republic]

So why does God make people gay via their genes?

So why does God make people criminals via their genes?

Hopefully that question isn't aimed at me, because you'd be asking the wrong person.  Ask StatesRights, because he actually believes in God.  I just use the subject for picking out fallacies in believers' arguments.  The one you asked right there is also a good one.

[A18]

So why does God make people gay via their genes?

So why does God make people criminals via their genes?

Hopefully that question isn't aimed at me, because you'd be asking the wrong person.  Ask StatesRights, because he actually believes in God.  I just use the subject for picking out fallacies in believers' arguments.  The one you asked right there is also a good one.

It's the equivalent of asking, "If there is a God, why aren't all people perfect?" It's a logical fallacy, because the former would not require the latter.

[opebo]

I don't think anybody claimed to have scientific 'proof' - just a heck of a lot of evidence instead (nuggets of which have been posted variously in this thread).

Quick question for you, States.  Do you hate gay people?  I put the emphasis on 'hate'.

No, I do not hate gay people. I hate their lifestyle but not them.

I don't see any difference between their 'lifestyle' and your own, StatesRights.  They just stick things in holes.  I'm sure you do the same, though I suppose the only real difference is they could 'switich'.  I suppose technically you could too..

Anyway, it seems to me a matter of what you consider a 'different' lifestyle.  To me the differences seem so minute as to be inconsequential.  You might as well disapprove of people who live in apartments or eat a different kind of food from you.

No, their lifestyle is an abomination to God & nature quite obviously.

Exactly how?  Or why?  I imagine you could easily have sex with certain males under the impression they were female, especially when drunk.  Happens all the time in Thailand. 

[opebo]

So why does God make people gay via their genes?

So why does God make people criminals via their genes?

'Criminality' is caused by poverty, which is caused by the class heirarchy.  Fantasy characters have nothing to do with it.

[Ebowed]

Fantasy characters have nothing to do with it.

Lately I'm beginning to think you are a fantasy character, opebo

[TheWildCard]

This could be the next PA13 thread... And, its about Fruit Flie girl on girl porn...

This forum has gone down hill since the elections hasn't it?

[Joe Republic]

It's the equivalent of asking, "If there is a God, why aren't all people perfect?" It's a logical fallacy, because the former would not require the latter.

No it's not the equivalent, because I know that isn't true.  What I was asking (and I'll incorporate your question into this), is why God puts the genetic structures in place that will eventually cause people to become either homosexual or a violent criminal.

(My apologies for putting two completely separate demographics in the same boat.)

[Palefire]

It's the equivalent of asking, "If there is a God, why aren't all people perfect?" It's a logical fallacy, because the former would not require the latter.

No it's not the equivalent, because I know that isn't true.  What I was asking (and I'll incorporate your question into this), is why God puts the genetic structures in place that will eventually cause people to become either homosexual or a violent criminal.

(My apologies for putting two completely separate demographics in the same boat.)

Why did God make people different? Why are some smarter than others? Why are some more understanding than others? Why are some less caring than others? I know you don't care Joe (and frankly, I hold nothing against you for that, and understand your point of view (or at least I think I do); even if I care).

If one has faith that God is responsible for the creation of a universe that is beyond our understanding, it forces a person to step back and ask questions about the limits of our understanding. Most folks want to assume that their understanding is equal to that of God it would seem; that God is some how limited by their understanding of things. I don't get it. I guess that folks just want to believe in something larger than them so much; but at the same time can not accept what something so much larger than them really means.

With all the hypocrisy surrounding the Christian faith and the concept of an illogical leap of faith, I can understand how many are put off by it. Seeing Christians use their beliefs to belittle others and cast judgments (which, if I'm not mistaken, the Christian faith teaches us not to do) must repel many, which is a disgrace to the faith as I see it. It would seem that so many believe that their ability to pull the wool over other peoples eyes in terms of their faith some how translates into an ability to pull the wool over Gods eyes. If people truly believed that Jesus was the son of God they would bother to understand and live by his teachings a little better. Otherwise one would have to assume that those people believed he was a fraud, it would be my assumption that God could figure that out. But his teachings are not that convenient to many, and as such we get many folks that look to be self righteous by pointing out the failings in others; failings that they themselves would never come close to, to begin with due to their life style. Pulling the wool over Gods eyes is something that I would imagine can not be done, much less that easily. People that try; really need to reconsider their motivations and study the words of his son a little better.

Sorry for the sanctimonious rant - it certainly was not directed at you Joe, again - I don't pretand to be in a place were I can cast judgment on those that have no faith, because there are so many that pretend to have faith; logic makes your decisions almost compulsory. It only takes a minor understanding of the words of Jesus to understand the one can not worship both money and God; and this country is filled with money worshipers that place their economic position above all else in their lives, yet pretend they place God above all else.

[Max Power]

Where I'm from, homosexuality is despised.  It's a common end to jokes.  It's a common insult.  Gays are ridiculed.

Then where you come from disgusts me. So much for ther 'family values' bullsh!t.

[Jake]

Preston's experiences are common in any high school. From ones in Silver Spring to Houston to my high school, being anti-gay is expected from everyone. Not good or bad, but the way it is.

[??????????]

Actually it is NOT against the Christian religion to cast judgement. The WHOLE quote goes like this, "Judge not lest ye be judged; for the manner in which you judge you shall be judged also." In other words the bible is teaching against harsh judgements and it doesn't say not to make any judgements at all. I don't know where some "Christians" get the silly idea that they must accept the actions of all people and say they do out of "tolerance". Christians should never tolerate sin, ever. Now if a sinner comes to the church seeking God and then wants to change his ways that's one thing and is perfectly acceptable. But if a person expects to be accepted into the church as a sinner and allowed to KEEP sinning then that is wrong. I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.

[Joe Republic]

I appreciate your response Palefire, but it doesn't really answer my question.

If anybody else wants to try, it's; "Why does God put the genetic structures in place that will eventually cause people to become either homosexual or a violent criminal?"

[Gabu]

If anybody else wants to try, it's; "Why does God put the genetic structures in place that will eventually cause people to become either homosexual or a violent criminal?"

There are certain questions where I can at least theorize some sort of answer to them, but this is one where I really have no idea.  The only theory I can come up with off the top of my head is to note the fact that it's impossible to value something unless you can see the alternative.  If God made everyone exactly the same, completely perfect in every way, life would be entirely meaningless.  Happiness wouldn't even be understandable, because there's nothing to compare it to in order to realize what a wonderful thing it is.

In essence, by creating imperfections, sadness, and other things in life that are deemed as "bad", God allows us to appreciate the absence of these things.  You don't fully appreciate the warmth of a house until you come out of a downpour into it and dry yourself off.  You don't fully appreciate the feeling of safety until you become worried and subsequently relieved.  It's almost somewhat of a paradox, but you can't be happy unless you're unhappy some of the time.  If you're not unhappy some of the time, then happiness is no longer a positive thing, and is instead simply something that you assume will always be there, and soon enough will be something that you don't even care about anymore.

This doesn't really account for the people who are worse off than others, though.  If God truly wanted everyone to be happy on Earth, he would give everyone the same level of opportunity to experience happiness as anyone else.  Thus, I must come to the conclusion that this isn't the idea behind everything.  As for what the idea actually is, I can't really say.  Perhaps those who lead a troubled life are rewarded more than anyone else in the afterlife as compensation for the ordeals that they had to suffer through in life.  I do believe that God loves everyone and does not intend to simply sit back while someone gets everything and others get nothing.  He may not do anything for the people while on Earth, but I reject the idea that these people are abandoned.

I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

PS: Okay, I guess I do have at least some idea...

[Ebowed]

I appreciate your response Palefire, but it doesn't really answer my question.

If anybody else wants to try, it's; "Why does God put the genetic structures in place that will eventually cause people to become either homosexual or a violent criminal?"

I think we're all predispositioned to certain sins, i.e. we all have our weaknesses.  Some are undeniably worse than others, for example violent crime and homosexuality are obviously not in the same category.  But I'm a believer in the idea that the purpose of these weaknesses is to give us a reason in life: to overcome them and become "closer" with the God that creates us this way.  It's not an issue I'm 100% sure on, but that's been my take on it since I've been pretty young.

[Palefire]

I appreciate your response Palefire, but it doesn't really answer my question.

If anybody else wants to try, it's; "Why does God put the genetic structures in place that will eventually cause people to become either homosexual or a violent criminal?"

You're not going to get an answer better than "I guess". I don't know what the answer is, and I don't even have a good guess. If one can accept that their God is beyond their understanding in many ways, then it's not to hard to accept that issues like this are beyond their understanding.

[Palefire]

Actually it is NOT against the Christian religion to cast judgement. The WHOLE quote goes like this, "Judge not lest ye be judged; for the manner in which you judge you shall be judged also." In other words the bible is teaching against harsh judgements and it doesn't say not to make any judgements at all. I don't know where some "Christians" get the silly idea that they must accept the actions of all people and say they do out of "tolerance". Christians should never tolerate sin, ever. Now if a sinner comes to the church seeking God and then wants to change his ways that's one thing and is perfectly acceptable. But if a person expects to be accepted into the church as a sinner and allowed to KEEP sinning then that is wrong. I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.

I didn't bring up tolerance, so I'm not quite sure why I got the standard right wing response for why it's ok for people to be intolerant. But, since we are on that topic; it is possible to be intolerant without being hateful - that's a concept that seems to elude most folks. I think that is because they are so eager to prove that they are righteous and so badly want others to think that they are righteous that they try an express their intolerance as loudly as possible and in terms people that they want acceptance from will understand. Inevitably, it becomes a contest to see who can be more intolerant. And that goes back to my comments about pulling the wool over peoples eyes, etc., etc., etc.

[??????????]

Actually it is NOT against the Christian religion to cast judgement. The WHOLE quote goes like this, "Judge not lest ye be judged; for the manner in which you judge you shall be judged also." In other words the bible is teaching against harsh judgements and it doesn't say not to make any judgements at all. I don't know where some "Christians" get the silly idea that they must accept the actions of all people and say they do out of "tolerance". Christians should never tolerate sin, ever. Now if a sinner comes to the church seeking God and then wants to change his ways that's one thing and is perfectly acceptable. But if a person expects to be accepted into the church as a sinner and allowed to KEEP sinning then that is wrong. I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.

I didn't bring up tolerance, so I'm not quite sure why I got the standard right wing response for why it's ok for people to be intolerant. But, since we are on that topic; it is possible to be intolerant without being hateful - that's a concept that seems to elude most folks. I think that is because they are so eager to prove that they are righteous and so badly want others to think that they are righteous that they try an express their intolerance as loudly as possible and in terms people that they want acceptance from will understand. Inevitably, it becomes a contest to see who can be more intolerant. And that goes back to my comments about pulling the wool over peoples eyes, etc., etc., etc.

That is the biblical response I gave. If you want to be a religious bigot then whatever. The answer I gave is what a good Christian believes whether you like that fact or not.

[Palefire]

Actually it is NOT against the Christian religion to cast judgement. The WHOLE quote goes like this, "Judge not lest ye be judged; for the manner in which you judge you shall be judged also." In other words the bible is teaching against harsh judgements and it doesn't say not to make any judgements at all. I don't know where some "Christians" get the silly idea that they must accept the actions of all people and say they do out of "tolerance". Christians should never tolerate sin, ever. Now if a sinner comes to the church seeking God and then wants to change his ways that's one thing and is perfectly acceptable. But if a person expects to be accepted into the church as a sinner and allowed to KEEP sinning then that is wrong. I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.

I didn't bring up tolerance, so I'm not quite sure why I got the standard right wing response for why it's ok for people to be intolerant. But, since we are on that topic; it is possible to be intolerant without being hateful - that's a concept that seems to elude most folks. I think that is because they are so eager to prove that they are righteous and so badly want others to think that they are righteous that they try an express their intolerance as loudly as possible and in terms people that they want acceptance from will understand. Inevitably, it becomes a contest to see who can be more intolerant. And that goes back to my comments about pulling the wool over peoples eyes, etc., etc., etc.

That is the biblical response I gave. If you want to be a religious bigot then whatever. The answer I gave is what a good Christian believes whether you like that fact or not.

Hmmmm, so noting that intolerance and hate are 2 different things can be added to States rather long list of things that define a religious bigot.

But let me ask you States, when you said "I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.” what are you trying to imply about yourself? That you are free from sin? I would caution you against such a view. I would also caution you against your rather liberal use of the words "good Christian".

[??????????]

Actually it is NOT against the Christian religion to cast judgement. The WHOLE quote goes like this, "Judge not lest ye be judged; for the manner in which you judge you shall be judged also." In other words the bible is teaching against harsh judgements and it doesn't say not to make any judgements at all. I don't know where some "Christians" get the silly idea that they must accept the actions of all people and say they do out of "tolerance". Christians should never tolerate sin, ever. Now if a sinner comes to the church seeking God and then wants to change his ways that's one thing and is perfectly acceptable. But if a person expects to be accepted into the church as a sinner and allowed to KEEP sinning then that is wrong. I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.

I didn't bring up tolerance, so I'm not quite sure why I got the standard right wing response for why it's ok for people to be intolerant. But, since we are on that topic; it is possible to be intolerant without being hateful - that's a concept that seems to elude most folks. I think that is because they are so eager to prove that they are righteous and so badly want others to think that they are righteous that they try an express their intolerance as loudly as possible and in terms people that they want acceptance from will understand. Inevitably, it becomes a contest to see who can be more intolerant. And that goes back to my comments about pulling the wool over peoples eyes, etc., etc., etc.

That is the biblical response I gave. If you want to be a religious bigot then whatever. The answer I gave is what a good Christian believes whether you like that fact or not.

Hmmmm, so noting that intolerance and hate are 2 different things can be added to States rather long list of things that define a religious bigot.

But let me ask you States, when you said "I would have no problem with a homosexual joining the church as long as they were to quit their sinful way of living. But I would not accept them as true Christians if they kept living in their filth and sin.” what are you trying to imply about yourself? That you are free from sin? I would caution you against such a view. I would also caution you against your rather liberal use of the words "good Christian".

I am not free of sin this is true. But NO one is...even the best of christians. But even so the FACT remains that it is a good christians DUTY in fact to call out the sins of others and HELP them get away from their sinful ways. You probably don't understand that being a religious bigot who is blind. But I understand and hope that someday you may be awakened to the Lord.

[Palefire]

Ah, I see, it's all about helping people to you. I never would have guessed that. Interesting. Most interesting.