Your opinion of F. W. de Klerk

[dazzleman]

He yielded power and gave up on apartheid without making a violent last stand that would have sacrificed many lives to a futile and wrong cause.

No.  There was never any chance of war.  Never.  Not even the remotest.  South Africa didn't believe in disarming its people.  Every person was expected to be armed.  You can't take a country from people that are armed.

But you could have battles among those who are armed.  I assume you mean though that white people were armed, not blacks.  I find it hard to imagine that the apartheid government would have allowed or encouraged the black majority to arm themselves.

[Richard]

But you could have battles among those who are armed.

Extremely unlikely.  See, most of the black people were quite content with living on their farms, raising their livestock and growing some produce.  Only a very few were very vocal in politics, similar to Quebec.  There was never any armed conflict.  It is not like other countries where you see the rebels perform acts of violence.  It just isn't on the books.  Of course, there are the exceptions such as Mandela who resorted to bombs and murdering innocent people.

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In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Still defending Apartheid, eh?

[Richard]

Still defending Apartheid, eh?

Yes.  I see you're still opposed to people having food, clothing, and peace of mind that their 1 year old daughter won't be raped by some AIDS guy believing it will cure him of AIDS?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Namibia got its independence in 1990.

Ha, Richius actually thinks those bantustans were real countries.

Bantustans?  What are those?

the "countries" you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan

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There is no American embassy in Taiwan.  Clearly, Taiwan is a fictious country.  You agree, of course?

No Taiwan is not a country, it is an autonomous breakaway province, like Transnistria or Northern Cyprus.

[Bono]

the "countries" you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan

in fact, the South African embassy to Bophuthatswana had to be moved because it turned out that it was accidentally built in South Africa.

LOL

[Richard]

Namibia got its independence in 1990.

Ha, Richius actually thinks those bantustans were real countries.

Bantustans?  What are those?

the "countries" you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan

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There is no American embassy in Taiwan.  Clearly, Taiwan is a fictious country.  You agree, of course?

No Taiwan is not a country, it is an autonomous breakaway province, like Transnistria or Northern Cyprus.

Well, I consider Taiwan a country, and I really do not care whether you consider the former countries of Transkei, Ciskei, etc., to be countries or not.  I do, and South Africans did.  They hardly need the world's permission to spin off a new country.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

not a single other nation in the world did.

there was also some, ahem, interesting shapes in those "countries" (note what Bono posted). Gee, maybe because the white government was gerrymandering to keep all the best farmland in "real" South Africa and preserving 83% of the land for 15% of the population? Yeah, that was really generous to the blacks.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Bantustans were the result of a sick racist wet dream. Nowt else to say bout em.

[dazzleman]

In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

Do you realize how absurd that is?  They were not allowed to be citizens in their own country?

[opebo]

In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

Do you realize how absurd that is?  They were not allowed to be citizens in their own country?

Were slaves citizens in the US prior to the civil war?  Were blacks citizens prior to the Voting Rights Act?  Were women prior to sufferage?  South Africa was not so different from our own history.

[Cashcow]

In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

Do you realize how absurd that is?  They were not allowed to be citizens in their own country?

Were slaves citizens in the US prior to the civil war?  Were blacks citizens prior to the Voting Rights Act?  Were women prior to sufferage?  South Africa was not so different from our own history.

Except for the difference of well over a hundred years.

[Jake]

And the fact that the ratios of blacks to whites were polar opposites.

[Richard]

In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

Do you realize how absurd that is?  They were not allowed to be citizens in their own country?

Huh??  They didn't live in South Africa...  How can it be their country if they don't live there?  It is like saying how absurd it is because I'm not a citizen in Canada.

[opebo]

In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

Do you realize how absurd that is?  They were not allowed to be citizens in their own country?

Were slaves citizens in the US prior to the civil war?  Were blacks citizens prior to the Voting Rights Act?  Were women prior to sufferage?  South Africa was not so different from our own history.

Except for the difference of well over a hundred years.

Actually no, women were non-citizens until what, the 1920's?  And blacks were denied full citizenship untill about 1964 or so.  So no, America's recent history is similar to racist South Africa.

[opebo]

In South Africa, all citizens were allowed firearms.  Blacks were not citizens in South Africa.  I am unaware of what the neigboring countries' laws were regarding firearms possession.

Do you realize how absurd that is?  They were not allowed to be citizens in their own country?

Huh??  They didn't live in South Africa...  How can it be their country if they don't live there?  It is like saying how absurd it is because I'm not a citizen in Canada.

Where are you claiming they lived? 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He's claiming it was perfectly fine because blacks were herded off to their own "countries", the bantustans I mentioned above, which were more ridiculously shaped than the worst gerrymanderings for the purpose of keeping all the best farmland and 83% of the territory in white hands. Let's look at a map:



Richius is saying there is nothing discriminatory about herding a majority of the population into overcrowded sh**tholes deliberately drawn to increase poverty so to increase wealth for the minority population because "they have their own countries".

Not all Nazis wanted to exteriminate the Jews, some just wanted to remove them their territory. If the more "moderate' Nazis got control, built a "Jewish homeland" in a part of Germany with absolutely no development or natural resources, and then forced all Jews to go there, is that perfectly fine because the Jews have their own country now?

[Richard]

He's claiming it was perfectly fine because blacks were herded off to their own "countries",

They were not herded off, as you put it.  That is where the tribes lived.  How is this different from the Indian reservations you have?  Except, these countries have their own governments!  No federal government to annoy the Indians.

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Citation?  Or are you pulling that out of your ass?  Can you please prove to me geographically that the best farmland stayed in South Africa?  Because I know that the borders were drawn up by the people themselves around the land they claimed as belonging to their tribe.

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*cough* You really can't read and comprehend, can you?  Of course apartheid is discriminatory.  Can you tell me where I said it isn't?  In fact, I can point out several times where I specifically stated that it is discriminatory.

Would you like to prove your point that these countries were "overcrowded?"  Please.  Cite a source.  From personal experiences, these were mostly rural villages with farms and land around them populated by the tribes.

Increase poverty?  Do you know much foreign aid was sent from South Africa to the neighboring countries?  Come now. 

You know jack squat about apartheid South Africa.  You believe what you want to believe, not reality.

[The Vorlon]

He managed to turn over power with a (relatively) modest amount of bloodshed.

He gets a positive rating for this.

Funny how politics alters reality.

Nelson Mandella was always characterized as a "political" prisoner by the media, yet he was actually in jail for helping to plant a bomb in a military hospital which murdered more than a dozen people.

So it goes...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

um, look at the map I posted above.

Now from the linked wikipedia article:

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[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Nelson Mandella was always characterized as a "political" prisoner by the media, yet he was actually in jail for helping to plant a bomb in a military hospital which murdered more than a dozen people.

no difference between that and the French Resistance and Yugoslav partisans bombing German military hospitals.

[??????????]

Nelson Mandella was always characterized as a "political" prisoner by the media, yet he was actually in jail for helping to plant a bomb in a military hospital which murdered more than a dozen people.

no difference between that and the French Resistance and Yugoslav partisans bombing German military hospitals.

You approve of bombing hospitals? Sick.

[Jens]

He's claiming it was perfectly fine because blacks were herded off to their own "countries",

They were not herded off, as you put it.  That is where the tribes lived. 

That is just a blatant lie. The blacks in the townships like Soweto et. al. were assigned to a bantustan eventhough they had little or no relation to that bantustan and was born in the townships. The whole idea was to make the blacks foreigners in their own country

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Nelson Mandella was always characterized as a "political" prisoner by the media, yet he was actually in jail for helping to plant a bomb in a military hospital which murdered more than a dozen people.

no difference between that and the French Resistance and Yugoslav partisans bombing German military hospitals.

You approve of bombing hospitals? Sick.

Do you disagree with the French Resistances and Yugoslav partisans doing so? MILITARY hospitals are valid military targets.

[??????????]

Nelson Mandella was always characterized as a "political" prisoner by the media, yet he was actually in jail for helping to plant a bomb in a military hospital which murdered more than a dozen people.

no difference between that and the French Resistance and Yugoslav partisans bombing German military hospitals.

You approve of bombing hospitals? Sick.

Do you disagree with the French Resistances and Yugoslav partisans doing so? MILITARY hospitals are valid military targets.

Yes, I do disagree with bombing hospitals. And no hospitals are NOT valid targets. You're as sick as Opebo.