Comparing Bush

[dazzleman]

I think it is too early to tell.  He, at this point, will rank better than Clinton, his father, Ford, way better than Johnson.  He may be judged better than Truman; certainly, he's done better than Truman, when comparing how Turman was regarded while in office.

I agree with most of what you say, J.J.

It's amazing to me how some people have such a lack of historical perspective that they can claim he's the worst president ever, without waiting to see the results of his policies.

Many presidents now considered great were hated while in office, while other highly popular ones fell in favor after their administrations ended.  There's no way to really judge a president's place in history while he is in office.

Bush will be a consequential president, one way or another.  That's why I don't think it's appropriate to rate him as average.  He will not be average.  He will either be a great president, possibly a mixed one, with strong pluses and minuses, or he could conceivably be a terrible one.  But it's too soon to tell.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I agree with most of what you say, J.J.

It's amazing to me how some people have such a lack of historical perspective that they can claim he's the worst president ever, without waiting to see the results of his policies.

Many presidents now considered great were hated while in office, while other highly popular ones fell in favor after their administrations ended.  There's no way to really judge a president's place in history while he is in office.

Bush will be a consequential president, one way or another.  That's why I don't think it's appropriate to rate him as average.  He will not be average.  He will either be a great president, possibly a mixed one, with strong pluses and minuses, or he could conceivably be a terrible one.  But it's too soon to tell.

I think people knew the Roosevelts were going to be great before they left office.

[Jake]

Ford like

[dazzleman]

I think people knew the Roosevelts were going to be great before they left office.

But not at the start of their second terms.  At this point in FDR's second term, he was getting his a** whipped over the court packing plan.  His New Deal was stalled, and he had no effective foreign policy.

There were many who felt about FDR just the way you feel about Bush.  Had he retired in 1940, after 2 terms, his place in history would not be anywhere near where it is.  Although I am a Republican, I have spoken favorably of FDR's leadership in resisting Nazi aggression many times.

[dazzleman]

Ford like

Dude, I really can't agree with you here.  Ford was a relatively bland president, who didn't make a lot of bold moves.  He was basically a caretaker whose main job was to heal the country and make as few waves as possible.  That's what the time called for.

Agree or disagree, Bush has made bold moves.  That's why I say he could be great, terrible, or strongly mixed, but never average.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I think people knew the Roosevelts were going to be great before they left office.

But not at the start of their second terms.  At this point in FDR's second term, he was getting his a** whipped over the court packing plan.  His New Deal was stalled, and he had no effective foreign policy.

There were many who felt about FDR just the way you feel about Bush.  Had he retired in 1940, after 2 terms, his place in history would not be anywhere near where it is.  Although I am a Republican, I have spoken favorably of FDR's leadership in resisting Nazi aggression many times.

In 1940, FDR beat a RINO by a landslide.

[dazzleman]

I think people knew the Roosevelts were going to be great before they left office.

But not at the start of their second terms.  At this point in FDR's second term, he was getting his a** whipped over the court packing plan.  His New Deal was stalled, and he had no effective foreign policy.

There were many who felt about FDR just the way you feel about Bush.  Had he retired in 1940, after 2 terms, his place in history would not be anywhere near where it is.  Although I am a Republican, I have spoken favorably of FDR's leadership in resisting Nazi aggression many times.

In 1940, FDR beat a RINO by a landslide.

I am well aware of that.  I probably would have voted for FDR in 1940.  But the comparable time to compare Bush with Roosevelt would be 1937, not 1940.  Roosevelt ran and won in 1940 because of extraordinary international circumstances, and as you know, was the only president to successfully break the 2-term tradition before the 22nd amendment was passed.

[??????????]

Easily the worst president we've had.  No question.

The most incompetent and evil president by far.

He is in no way worse then #16.

[AkSaber]

He's one a lot of things I support, and some things I'm not too crazy about. But the good outweighs the bad,

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Absolutely terrible. He has not done a single thing I agree with. At least Reagan has the "tear down this wall!" line going for him. #7

[angus]

hmmmm. average, like Clinton.  (but without the cool hillbilly way of talking).  Not too sure I'd compare either of them to Ford, by the way, although it's interesting to speculate whether george would pardon his predecessor if the need arose.  I suspect he would, but there's really no way to know, and no way to compare folks like Clinton and Bush, who were elected during unprecedented Peace and marginal recessions, to folks like Ford, who came to power via general weirdness and amid a losing war.

[Jake]

Ford like

Dude, I really can't agree with you here.  Ford was a relatively bland president, who didn't make a lot of bold moves.  He was basically a caretaker whose main job was to heal the country and make as few waves as possible.  That's what the time called for.

Agree or disagree, Bush has made bold moves.  That's why I say he could be great, terrible, or strongly mixed, but never average.

It was that by default. There was no option for good but not great. He's somewhere between Reagan and Ford right now, maybe right by Nixon. If Iraq succeeds and he can get some of his domestic package passed, he jumps up into Reagan territory.

[dazzleman]

Absolutely terrible. He has not done a single thing I agree with. At least Reagan has the "tear down this wall!" line going for him. #7

You would have vilified Reagan for his "tear down this wall" comment had you been politically aware at the time Reagan made that speech (1987).  Many people now say they think it was a great speech, but at the time, liberals vociferously opposed Reagan's confrontational policy with the Soviets, and many conservatives were quite uncomfortable with it also. 

[Colin]

Before Bush became President, I had the feeling that he'd be the worst President we ever had. Despite my amazing low expectations, he's been a worse President than I thought. Obviously option 7.

jfern I have a few question for you. First how old are you? I want to know this so I can see if President Bush is the first real President that you have known when you are old enough to figure out and understand politics. Second question is what Presidents have you lived under since age 14?

I remember Clinton and Bush senior being President fairly well. I vaugely remember Reagan. I'm not sure how any of this matters, since the other really bad Presidents were from long ago: Buchanan, Coolidge.

It does matter. When you are younger and have not seen many President's within your lifetime you tend to think that whatever nutcase in power at that time is the worst ever since you have not had first hand experience with any others. I'm guessing, although I may be wrong, that you are in college now and only really started getting involved in politics at the end of the Clinton years. That was when you began to formulate your views of the world. That is why you see a leader who doesn't not hold your views, and often goes against them, as the worst in the entire history of the United States. It is not because of incompetence it is because you have not had much first hand experience with other Presidents and other leaders.

[dazzleman]

Before Bush became President, I had the feeling that he'd be the worst President we ever had. Despite my amazing low expectations, he's been a worse President than I thought. Obviously option 7.

jfern I have a few question for you. First how old are you? I want to know this so I can see if President Bush is the first real President that you have known when you are old enough to figure out and understand politics. Second question is what Presidents have you lived under since age 14?

I remember Clinton and Bush senior being President fairly well. I vaugely remember Reagan. I'm not sure how any of this matters, since the other really bad Presidents were from long ago: Buchanan, Coolidge.

It does matter. When you are younger and have not seen many President's within your lifetime you tend to think that whatever nutcase in power at that time is the worst ever since you have not had first hand experience with any others. I'm guessing, although I may be wrong, that you are in college now and only really started getting involved in politics at the end of the Clinton years. That was when you began to formulate your views of the world. That is why you see a leader who doesn't not hold your views, and often goes against them, as the worst in the entire history of the United States. It is not because of incompetence it is because you have not had much first hand experience with other Presidents and other leaders.

I agree Colin.  I have seen a marked lack of historical perspective exhibited by some people here.  Frankly, it does a huge disservice to their views that they express them in such a naive and hysterical manner.

[A18]

By what Republicans?

[Max Power]

I don't understand why Democrats hate Coolidge.

I don't hate him.

[minionofmidas]

Options one, six, and eight all apply. I voted option six.

[No more McShame]

I think it is too early to tell.  He, at this point, will rank better than Clinton, his father, Ford, way better than Johnson.  He may be judged better than Truman; certainly, he's done better than Truman, when comparing how Turman was regarded while in office.

I agree with most of what you say, J.J.

It's amazing to me how some people have such a lack of historical perspective that they can claim he's the worst president ever, without waiting to see the results of his policies.

Many presidents now considered great were hated while in office, while other highly popular ones fell in favor after their administrations ended.  There's no way to really judge a president's place in history while he is in office.

Bush will be a consequential president, one way or another.  That's why I don't think it's appropriate to rate him as average.  He will not be average.  He will either be a great president, possibly a mixed one, with strong pluses and minuses, or he could conceivably be a terrible one.  But it's too soon to tell.

Dazzleman and JJ hit it on the head here.  My hunch is that he'll be fondly remembered for something that occured over his watch and demonized for others.  I don't know where you get that all Republicans adore the guy... if that's true it's only due to him being better than alternatives offered at the time.  I shudder to think what this world would be like right now under Gore or Kerry.

[nclib]

Option 7 - easily the worst President ever.

[A18]

I judge him by the enemies he's made.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I judge him by the enemies he's made.

The old enemy of my enemy is my friend bullsh**t?

1. You must like Hitler, since the left hates him.

2. Iran and Iraq fought a war for most of the '80s. We've fought two wars with Iraq. Therefore Iran is our best ally.

3. Since Stalin and Hitler were enemies, one of them must be your friend.

[A18]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend to the extent that he hurts my enemy.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend to the extent that he hurts my enemy.

So if it was a secular liberal gay black jew versus Hitler, you'd definitely be rooting for Hitler?

[A18]

My enemy is not so much an individual, but rather an ideology of dependence and elite governance. Anything Hitler could do to dismantle that, without perpetuating a greater evil, would be great.