Let's Dispel with this fiction that...
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Author Topic: Let's Dispel with this fiction that...  (Read 3038 times)
Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« on: March 24, 2016, 12:01:45 AM »

Sanders cares about the overall welfare of the democratic party. He doesn't. No, he's not going to endorse TRUMP or Stein. But he's not going to stop attacking Hillary, or get out of the race (although I want him to), or stop trying hard to win, or whatever you may please. He doesn't consider himself a democrat, fundamentally disagrees with Hillary on several issues, and only entered the primary as a matter of convenience since running as an independent isn't a real way to win the presidency in this country. If he runs for senate reelection in 2018, it will be as an independent. He only caucuses with Democrats in the senate because you don't get committee positions as an independent and the republicans wouldn't accept him for obvious reasons. He may endorse Hillary, but don't expect him to be VP, on the cabinet, or to be a frequent campaigner for her or for establishment downballot candidates in the fall.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2016, 01:52:09 AM »

So?
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jfern
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2016, 02:23:25 AM »

He cares a lot more about the future of the Democratic party than Hillary. Her supporters are doing the best to shrink the party. Bernie brings a broader coalition, as evidenced by his superior showing in general election polls.
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dax00
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2016, 02:32:52 AM »

I care about values and policy. Clinton is the epitome of the establishment; Obama was/is a sell-out; Cruz is gonna be a religious tyrant. I'm okay if the Democratic party crumbles; I'm okay if the Republican party crumbles. Sanders and Trump are running campaigns based on principle, albeit very different ones.

I second the above: So?
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Pyro
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2016, 02:55:35 AM »

In my personal opinion, Sanders not being a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat is an emphatic plus.
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Flake
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2016, 03:20:48 AM »

Ah, another classic Wulfric thread! Hits include:

"If Bush does not run, it will be the biggest surprise since Roberts winning by 11 in 2014"

"Gay marriage is an assault on Christianity and Democracy"

and of course the post that broke all of the charts:

"9. Benghazi"

Looking forward to more of your #analysis!
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Democratic Cynicalism
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 05:22:54 AM »

The level to which both major parties in the US have arranged electoral laws to significantly privilege themselves over all independent/third-party candidates is well documented. Ballot access laws in various states make third party candidacies basically doomed from the start. In light of that, how are candidates and voters whose views largely fall outside of the Republican/Democratic political spectrum meant to realistically advocate their views, save for running on a major party ticket?

It cuts both ways, too. How many Klansmen and embarrassing racists would run in Republican primaries if ballot access laws were opened up and those people were allowed their own party?

When you restrict ballot access you force people who don't really share your party's values or interests to run in YOUR party's races, as long as their values are closer to your party's than the other's. You either widen ballot access laws or you learn to live with it.
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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2016, 06:43:22 AM »

I care about values and policy. Clinton is the epitome of the establishment; Obama was/is a sell-out; Cruz is gonna be a religious tyrant. I'm okay if the Democratic party crumbles; I'm okay if the Republican party crumbles. Sanders and Trump are running campaigns based on principle, albeit very different ones.

I second the above: So?

Agreed.

Both the anti-establishment candidates, Trump and Sanders, have no business running within the party structures that they're in. They are doing so simply because the way things work today, to be a viable candidate that's taken seriously, one must run within one of the two major parties.

To echo what others have said: So?
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SATW
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2016, 06:45:36 AM »

Honesty and Principles don't matter if they are insane and ridiculous (ex: Trump and Sanders).
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2016, 09:16:45 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2016, 09:52:39 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.

So?
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shua
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2016, 09:56:58 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.
Wulfic, I'm tired of your sh**t, so just go.  Everyone here hates you, go.  You contribute nothing to this forum.  Just throw sh**t to throw it.  Go stink up somewhere else ass wipe.


why are you such a nasty lately?
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Figueira
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2016, 10:00:35 AM »

Ah, another classic Wulfric thread! Hits include:

"If Bush does not run, it will be the biggest surprise since Roberts winning by 11 in 2014"

"Gay marriage is an assault on Christianity and Democracy"

and of course the post that broke all of the charts:

"9. Benghazi"

Looking forward to more of your #analysis!

Don't forget "Sanders should run in the Green Party if he wants to be President" and "Christie's endorsement of Trump means that there will be no Republicans for Hillary."
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Mallow
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2016, 10:09:32 AM »

I'm new here, but...

Ah, another classic Wulfric thread! Hits include:

"Gay marriage is an assault on Christianity and Democracy"

... wait, he said that?
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Figueira
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2016, 10:11:39 AM »

I'm new here, but...

Ah, another classic Wulfric thread! Hits include:

"Gay marriage is an assault on Christianity and Democracy"

... wait, he said that?

He's definitely said things to that effect.
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JerryArkansas
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2016, 10:17:20 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.
Wulfic, I'm tired of your sh**t, so just go.  Everyone here hates you, go.  You contribute nothing to this forum.  Just throw sh**t to throw it.  Go stink up somewhere else ass wipe.


why are you such a nasty lately?
Because I don't care what people think of me anymore.  So the filter that I had regarding stupid sh**t is gone.
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2016, 10:27:09 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.
Wulfic, I'm tired of your sh**t, so just go.  Everyone here hates you, go.  You contribute nothing to this forum.  Just throw sh**t to throw it.  Go stink up somewhere else ass wipe.


why are you such a nasty lately?
Because I don't care what people think of me anymore.  So the filter that I had regarding stupid sh**t is gone.

Quite frankly, I don't care what people think of me either. Nor is it as bad as you apparently think:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=231840.0
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Figueira
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2016, 10:30:28 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.
Wulfic, I'm tired of your sh**t, so just go.  Everyone here hates you, go.  You contribute nothing to this forum.  Just throw sh**t to throw it.  Go stink up somewhere else ass wipe.


why are you such a nasty lately?
Because I don't care what people think of me anymore.  So the filter that I had regarding stupid sh**t is gone.

Quite frankly, I don't care what people think of me either. Nor is it as bad as you apparently think:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=231840.0

I voted FF in that poll because I think you're a decent enough person, and I like having you here; however, that doesn't change the fact that your "analysis" typically makes no sense. Also you should really be less homophobic.

JerryArkansas is apparently now a bad poster, though.
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JerryArkansas
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2016, 10:31:14 AM »

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Stop trying to pretend Sanders is going to stop attacking and/or campaign for Hillary. It is not going to happen.
Wulfic, I'm tired of your sh**t, so just go.  Everyone here hates you, go.  You contribute nothing to this forum.  Just throw sh**t to throw it.  Go stink up somewhere else ass wipe.


why are you such a nasty lately?
Because I don't care what people think of me anymore.  So the filter that I had regarding stupid sh**t is gone.

Quite frankly, I don't care what people think of me either. Nor is it as bad as you apparently think:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=231840.0
I'm not sure the resounding victory on the backs of many newbie who haven't seen you in your true form is the most brag worthy thing.
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Mallow
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2016, 10:42:13 AM »

I'm new here, but...

Ah, another classic Wulfric thread! Hits include:

"Gay marriage is an assault on Christianity and Democracy"

... wait, he said that?

He's definitely said things to that effect.

Well that's disappointing...
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Wiz in Wis
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 10:45:18 AM »

He cares a lot more about the future of the Democratic party than Hillary. Her supporters are doing the best to shrink the party. Bernie brings a broader coalition, as evidenced by his superior showing in general election polls.

Ah, yes... Bernie's "broader coalition." The one that's getting over 3 million fewer votes than Hillary is. But, it is true. Bernie has a diverse set of supporters. From the blindingly pale to the merely pasty,  from the black Irish to ginger daywalkers... 18 year olds, 19 year olds, even 22 year olds! Truly, Bernie is building a colorful millennial whitebow of diversity.
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2016, 10:54:47 AM »

He cares a lot more about the future of the Democratic party than Hillary. Her supporters are doing the best to shrink the party. Bernie brings a broader coalition, as evidenced by his superior showing in general election polls.

Ah, yes... Bernie's "broader coalition." The one that's getting over 3 million fewer votes than Hillary is. But, it is true. Bernie has a diverse set of supporters. From the blindingly pale to the merely pasty,  from the black Irish to ginger daywalkers... 18 year olds, 19 year olds, even 22 year olds! Truly, Bernie is building a colorful millennial whitebow of diversity.

LOLOLOLOL

To be fair, Bernie's come a lot farther than most thought he would. The fact that he almost won Obama-loving Illinois is really something. But he obviously hasn't started any sort of real revolution against Hilllary.
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Illiniwek
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 10:59:08 AM »

I mean...he cares about promoting his progressive values and policies, and could care less about the party. I don't really think that's a bad thing. I think values and policies should define the party, not the other way around, because parties can be bought by special interests, and bought parties can corrupt and pervert the issues.
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ag
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 11:11:38 AM »

He cares a lot more about the future of the Democratic party than Hillary. Her supporters are doing the best to shrink the party. Bernie brings a broader coalition, as evidenced by his superior showing in general election polls.

Not true at all. Any extremist coalition is narrower than the one led by moderates. Sanders could bring in. some people on the fringe, but, long term (assuming Republicans do not continue running trumps and cruzes) he would lose many more in the center. One should not base long-term strategy on a few early election polls driven by the extremist offering on the Republican side and the anti-front-runner slander Clinton has been for such a long time exposed to. In any case, if Sanders were the nominee the same slanderers currently attacking Clinton would attack him: but unlike her he would not have a generally attractive policy package to counteract the character assassination.
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ag
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2016, 11:15:46 AM »

I mean...he cares about promoting his progressive values and policies, and could care less about the party. I don't really think that's a bad thing. I think values and policies should define the party, not the other way around, because parties can be bought by special interests, and bought parties can corrupt and pervert the issues.

If your values are not shared by most, it is a road to permanent losses. US constitution forces a two party system: that means both parties have to be grand coalitions of disparate ideological factions. Sanders is incapable of leading such a coalition. If you want an ideologically homogenous party to matter, you need to change the Constitution: at the very least you would need the Congress to be elected by some sort of PR.
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