North Carolina Overturns LGBT-Discrimination Bans

[SATW]

Also, not that it needs to be said, but I do not agree with Wolverine's comments here.

While I do think trans should get their own restroom and not use Male/Female ones, I strongly oppose demeaning trans people. They have a right to change their gender/sex if that is what they want and I don't think it's my place, or anyone else's place to judge.

I don't understand the trans mentality, but I am not morally opposed to it. I just do not believe that they should use mainstream restrooms.

[Mr. Reactionary]

No, this is what it boils down to, and this is not an unreasonable viewpoint:

If chromosomes are determinative of our status in life, does that mean diabetics who take insulin are violating the laws of nature since their chromosomes code for a defective pancreas? You know, since your viewpoint is that medical needs do not justify any kind of chemical treatment.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

See that's why we want to ban hormone therapy and prohibit sex change operations from being covered by insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid. That way those women don't get to grow beards and still have to use the correct restroom.

Good to know you openly support effectively eliminating an entire group of people because you're uncomfortable with their existence.

That's the whole point: to keep things the way they've always been, and to put certain people back in their places.

...I thought you were openly gay? How on earth do you justify something with "that's the way things have always been"?

Based on some other posts I've seen from him here and on AAD, the only type of person Wolverine wants to see in men's restrooms is 15 year-old boys.

OR he's so attracted to transwomen he really really wants so see them when he goes to the men's restroom.

Meanwhile he wants transmen in the female restroom, thats not very gay of him. Does this make him homoflexible?

No, this is what it boils down to, and this is not an unreasonable viewpoint:

that's not even internally consistent, dearie.

[Bojack Horseman]

See that's why we want to ban hormone therapy and prohibit sex change operations from being covered by insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid. That way those women don't get to grow beards and still have to use the correct restroom.

Good to know you openly support effectively eliminating an entire group of people because you're uncomfortable with their existence.

That's the whole point: to keep things the way they've always been, and to put certain people back in their places.

...I thought you were openly gay? How on earth do you justify something with "that's the way things have always been"?

Based on some other posts I've seen from him here and on AAD, the only type of person Wolverine wants to see in men's restrooms is 15 year-old boys.

OR he's so attracted to transwomen he really really wants so see them when he goes to the men's restroom.

Meanwhile he wants transmen in the female restroom, thats not very gay of him. Does this make him homoflexible?

No, this is what it boils down to, and this is not an unreasonable viewpoint:

You do realize that you could use more or less the exact same arguments to support discrimination against homosexuals?

No, it really can't. As gays and lesbians, we're genetically and biologically driven to be attracted to the same sex. Transgender is fighting your very chromosomes and body parts. There's a pretty big difference.

[This account no longer in use.]

Except for the fact that there is scientific evidence that transgender people are also genetically driven to be transgender.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

See that's why we want to ban hormone therapy and prohibit sex change operations from being covered by insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid. That way those women don't get to grow beards and still have to use the correct restroom.

Good to know you openly support effectively eliminating an entire group of people because you're uncomfortable with their existence.

That's the whole point: to keep things the way they've always been, and to put certain people back in their places.

...I thought you were openly gay? How on earth do you justify something with "that's the way things have always been"?

Based on some other posts I've seen from him here and on AAD, the only type of person Wolverine wants to see in men's restrooms is 15 year-old boys.

OR he's so attracted to transwomen he really really wants so see them when he goes to the men's restroom.

Meanwhile he wants transmen in the female restroom, thats not very gay of him. Does this make him homoflexible?

No, this is what it boils down to, and this is not an unreasonable viewpoint:

Give these a read. There's a reason why I take a position of "why should I care outside of the bathroom?" in terms of whether to allow people to change their gender and still enjoy the same rights as everyone else (I see marriage as settled law and so don't think about that angle aside from my support for limited religious freedom bills). I don't believe science has a smoking-gun proof that Transgenderism is real, but there's certainly enough doubt that binary covers everything:

http://www.medicaldaily.com/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-spectrum-rather-323956

"Neuroscience Proves What We've Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum" - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html

[Bojack Horseman]

I will tell you where my views came from. I spent two years on a major university campus, and in attending semi-regularly the LGBT group, I found that the vast majority of the members were either completely transgender, or said they were "non-binary" and had come up with all these words that aren't in the dictionary that they wanted to be called instead of he and she. Not only that, but they were the same thin-skinned "safe space" assholes that are taking over other college campuses. There was even one girl who thought she should have been born a cat, so she painted her face like a cat, complete with plastic whiskers every day.

One girl blew up at me because I dared call her ma'am, as you're supposed to call a woman whose name you don't know or can't remember, and had I had my wits about me, this would have been my reaction to both her temper tantrum and her little "gender identity:"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wT5ycFi8Xvw

There was even one girl who went so far as to drop $400 into legally changing her name to Max because she was so angry at people laughing at her idea that she wasn't a man or a woman, despite her clearly being a woman.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I will tell you where my views came from. I spent two years on a major university campus, and in attending semi-regularly the LGBT group, I found that the vast majority of the members were either completely transgender, or said they were "non-binary" and had come up with all these words that aren't in the dictionary that they wanted to be called instead of he and she. Not only that, but they were the same thin-skinned "safe space" assholes that are taking over other college campuses. There was even one girl who thought she should have been born a cat, so she painted her face like a cat, complete with plastic whiskers every day.

One girl blew up at me because I dared call her ma'am, as you're supposed to call a woman whose name you don't know or can't remember, and had I had my wits about me, this would have been my reaction to both her temper tantrum and her little "gender identity:"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wT5ycFi8Xvw

There was even one girl who went so far as to drop $400 into legally changing her name to Max because she was so angry at people laughing at her idea that she wasn't a man or a woman, despite her clearly being a woman.

This must have been a really horrific trauma. Clearly you need a safe space to recover. Sorry if we triggered you.

[Bojack Horseman]

I will tell you where my views came from. I spent two years on a major university campus, and in attending semi-regularly the LGBT group, I found that the vast majority of the members were either completely transgender, or said they were "non-binary" and had come up with all these words that aren't in the dictionary that they wanted to be called instead of he and she. Not only that, but they were the same thin-skinned "safe space" assholes that are taking over other college campuses. There was even one girl who thought she should have been born a cat, so she painted her face like a cat, complete with plastic whiskers every day.

One girl blew up at me because I dared call her ma'am, as you're supposed to call a woman whose name you don't know or can't remember, and had I had my wits about me, this would have been my reaction to both her temper tantrum and her little "gender identity:"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wT5ycFi8Xvw

There was even one girl who went so far as to drop $400 into legally changing her name to Max because she was so angry at people laughing at her idea that she wasn't a man or a woman, despite her clearly being a woman.

This must have been a really horrific trauma. Clearly you need a safe space to recover. Sorry if we triggered you.

You wanted an honest answer about why I feel the way I do, you got it.

[This account no longer in use.]

I'll be honest as well. Those are petty, ridiculous reasons.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I will tell you where my views came from. I spent two years on a major university campus, and in attending semi-regularly the LGBT group, I found that the vast majority of the members were either completely transgender, or said they were "non-binary" and had come up with all these words that aren't in the dictionary that they wanted to be called instead of he and she. Not only that, but they were the same thin-skinned "safe space" assholes that are taking over other college campuses. There was even one girl who thought she should have been born a cat, so she painted her face like a cat, complete with plastic whiskers every day.

One girl blew up at me because I dared call her ma'am, as you're supposed to call a woman whose name you don't know or can't remember, and had I had my wits about me, this would have been my reaction to both her temper tantrum and her little "gender identity:"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wT5ycFi8Xvw

There was even one girl who went so far as to drop $400 into legally changing her name to Max because she was so angry at people laughing at her idea that she wasn't a man or a woman, despite her clearly being a woman.

To be honest, when you go into those sorts of groups, you are asking for those sorts of situations. The people that actually join those sorts of groups and regularly attend are likely to be fervent activists who care deeply about the issue, and therefore seeing an "extreme case"  is far more likely. I suggest you recognize that the people who actually call themselves a "zis", "it", et al are few and far between and you probably won't come across one if you are not looking for one - most Transgenders are complete male to female or female to male cases rather than some sort of weird partial transition. The few that opt for a partial transition aren't worth caring about.

[This account no longer in use.]

And in any case, Mr. Wolverine, are you seriously saying that some of the great users of this forum should not be allowed to live as themselves and should be allowed to be discriminated against? Because I can name several transgender users here off the top of my head who are much, much more valuable to this forum than you, and it wouldn't be difficult either.

[This account no longer in use.]

Oh, and one more thing, Wolverine. I decided to image search that image you posted a few posts back to figure out wherever the hell you got it from. I found something even more interesting. It's simply an edit of a pro-transgender image, except the words "Gender is" and "Gender is not" are swapped. In other words, either this is a pathetic, lazy attempt at trolling, or you are desperately flailing for evidence to support your petty viewpoints. Either way, I'd rather not legitimize this, so this is the last post I'm making on this matter. Good day.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

'Well, Wolverine, a wide range of research from various scientific disciplines contradict you there-'

'Doesn't matter lol.  I learnt this in third grade and I never managed to graduate after that'

[Cassius]

People should basically use their common sense here. A man who considers himself female but still has all the physical attributes of a man should use the male bathroom. A woman who considers herself to be male, and has gone through the necessary surgery to be a man should also use the male bathroom. Essentially, people should determine which bathroom they use upon the basis of their present body, not the one they wish they had. Obviously, the birth certificate stipulation here doesn't allow for that, so that should definitely be examined upon practical grounds.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

People should basically use their common sense here. A man who considers himself female but still has all the physical attributes of a man should use the male bathroom. A woman who considers herself to be male, and has gone through the necessary surgery to be a man should also use the male bathroom. Essentially, people should determine which bathroom they use upon the basis of their present body, not the one they wish they had. Obviously, the birth certificate stipulation here doesn't allow for that, so that should definitely be examined upon practical grounds.

This is shockingly progressive from you, Cassius, but my question is where do you draw the line. Most trans men haven't had the genital surgery; would you make them use the women's restroom.

[Murica!]

Forget about Wulfric being more reasonable than wolverine, fycking cassius is still being more reasonable(even if he is still a terribly bigoted fyck).

[Cassius]

People should basically use their common sense here. A man who considers himself female but still has all the physical attributes of a man should use the male bathroom. A woman who considers herself to be male, and has gone through the necessary surgery to be a man should also use the male bathroom. Essentially, people should determine which bathroom they use upon the basis of their present body, not the one they wish they had. Obviously, the birth certificate stipulation here doesn't allow for that, so that should definitely be examined upon practical grounds.

This is shockingly progressive from you, Cassius, but my question is where do you draw the line. Most trans men haven't had the genital surgery; would you make them use the women's restroom.

Well, you know, I'm hardly an expert on the whole trans thing, to put it crudely, and I'm not really acquainted of the whole spectrum, if you will, of what being 'trans' (a broad label, as I'm sure you'll agree) entails, and I have very little idea of how gender reassignment works. Going back to the common sense comment I opened with, I'd tend to go with the view that 'if you look like a man, you should be using the male bathroom'. Obviously, masculinity and male looks are in of themselves subjective, but I can't really think of a better solution to this. I mean, public bathrooms are public places, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with a trans person who, to my eyes (given that they would be a stranger to me) was a woman, using the male toilets, and the reasons for discomfort would probably be even greater in the reverse situation. I think a system where any person can use any toilet regardless of gender would be open to all manner of problems (for instance, male pranksters, or worse, claiming to be trans so they could enter female bathrooms), so I think the best bet is simply for people to use the bathroom that they would look less out of place in.

[Goldwater]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, Cassius, but I don't think there would be any objective or reasonable way to enforce such rules.

[IceAgeComing]

People should basically use their common sense here. A man who considers himself female but still has all the physical attributes of a man should use the male bathroom. A woman who considers herself to be male, and has gone through the necessary surgery to be a man should also use the male bathroom. Essentially, people should determine which bathroom they use upon the basis of their present body, not the one they wish they had. Obviously, the birth certificate stipulation here doesn't allow for that, so that should definitely be examined upon practical grounds.

This is shockingly progressive from you, Cassius, but my question is where do you draw the line. Most trans men haven't had the genital surgery; would you make them use the women's restroom.

Well, you know, I'm hardly an expert on the whole trans thing, to put it crudely, and I'm not really acquainted of the whole spectrum, if you will, of what being 'trans' (a broad label, as I'm sure you'll agree) entails, and I have very little idea of how gender reassignment works. Going back to the common sense comment I opened with, I'd tend to go with the view that 'if you look like a man, you should be using the male bathroom'. Obviously, masculinity and male looks are in of themselves subjective, but I can't really think of a better solution to this. I mean, public bathrooms are public places, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with a trans person who, to my eyes (given that they would be a stranger to me) was a woman, using the male toilets, and the reasons for discomfort would probably be even greater in the reverse situation. I think a system where any person can use any toilet regardless of gender would be open to all manner of problems (for instance, male pranksters, or worse, claiming to be trans so they could enter female bathrooms), so I think the best bet is simply for people to use the bathroom that they would look less out of place in.

The whole "letting pranksters/perverts into ladies bathrooms!!!" thing is making a mountain out of a mole hill; .  Think about it: if someone is going to go and commit Sexual Harassment why would they decide to stick - and also why would they follow these ridiculous laws - they're already intending to commit a much worse crime, they aren't going to stop because they could get a relatively small fine!

In the UK, since the passing of the Equality Act in 2010, it has been illegal to discriminate against a trans person using the public toilet of the gender that they identify and present as (with a few exceptions thanks to the Equality Act having lots of lovely holes in it): there have been a few cases (not that many, my quick research found two reported prosecutions) that have gone through the legal system and have resulted in businesses being fined.  Shockingly, I could not find a case of someone who claimed to be transgender and ended up committing sexual harassment in the "wrong" bathroom - although I did find a fair few cases of trans people being sexually harassed.  Its a phenomenon that literally does not exist: its a scare story that has been created by people that don't want to argue on the actual merits of nondiscrimination policies.

All these policies will do is force people like those who've had their pictures posted in this thread into the wrong toilets; places where transwomen are much more likely to face harassment of all kinds and where transmen might be perceived as the peeping toms that these bills are apparently meant to stop.

[tik 🪀✨]

I will tell you where my views came from. I spent two years on a major university campus, and in attending semi-regularly the LGBT group, I found that the vast majority of the members were either completely transgender, or said they were "non-binary" and had come up with all these words that aren't in the dictionary that they wanted to be called instead of he and she. Not only that, but they were the same thin-skinned "safe space" assholes that are taking over other college campuses. There was even one girl who thought she should have been born a cat, so she painted her face like a cat, complete with plastic whiskers every day.

One girl blew up at me because I dared call her ma'am, as you're supposed to call a woman whose name you don't know or can't remember, and had I had my wits about me, this would have been my reaction to both her temper tantrum and her little "gender identity:"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wT5ycFi8Xvw

There was even one girl who went so far as to drop $400 into legally changing her name to Max because she was so angry at people laughing at her idea that she wasn't a man or a woman, despite her clearly being a woman.

Edit: Decided to cut down my very long post into a few key points:

On your college experience: These people do sound like obnoxious jerks and I don't blame you for disliking them. However, they aren't representative of everyday transgender people, who usually just want to go about their business just like anyone else. It would do you good to ask yourself why these people became overly defensive, angry, and irritating.

On transgenderism itself: A lot of what I'd written the first time around has been said to you many times, probably. I don't know why me saying it would make it sink in. But, you know, evidence is building that there is a physical, biological basis for it. It's also telling that when transgender people are given the hormones of the sex they wish to transition to, they become remarkably happier and more well-adjusted psychologically. It's almost as if their brains have been expecting these chemicals to have been there the entire time. That's speculative, but it should give you pause.

On the bathroom issue: I'm always taken back by how little people know about the actual process of transitioning, and how they then decide they can spout off "common sense" rules and try to "solve" the issue. I don't really feel like going into detail here, my only points are that requiring physical traits very quickly creates more problems than it solves and that, well, a good majority of transgender people just want to pee and get back to whatever it was they were doing. This, as I said before, is a very common theme among people who visit restrooms. You can't make a "separate but equal" solution to this by requiring a third bathroom either. Guess what - you have probably used restrooms alongside transgender people hundreds of times and never even realized it. Spooky!

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

[Bojack Horseman]

So in that case, how can we accommodate transgender people humanely and respectfully, while still addressing situations like this: http://www.krem.com/news/local/northwest/man-in-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/45412534 / http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

Would mandating that public buildings designate unisex restrooms be acceptable? I'm not being sarcastic here, and I'm actually asking this as a legitimate question. Is there a middle ground we can find?

[Antonio the Sixth]

So in that case, how can we accommodate transgender people humanely and respectfully, while still addressing situations like this: http://www.krem.com/news/local/northwest/man-in-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/45412534 / http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

Would mandating that public buildings designate unisex restrooms be acceptable? I'm not being sarcastic here, and I'm actually asking this as a legitimate question. Is there a middle ground we can find?

Yes, gender neutral restrooms are great. Hopefully they'll become more common.

[Hydera]

So in that case, how can we accommodate transgender people humanely and respectfully, while still addressing situations like this: http://www.krem.com/news/local/northwest/man-in-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/45412534 / http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

Would mandating that public buildings designate unisex restrooms be acceptable? I'm not being sarcastic here, and I'm actually asking this as a legitimate question. Is there a middle ground we can find?

[Hydera]

So in that case, how can we accommodate transgender people humanely and respectfully, while still addressing situations like this: http://www.krem.com/news/local/northwest/man-in-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/45412534 / http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

Would mandating that public buildings designate unisex restrooms be acceptable? I'm not being sarcastic here, and I'm actually asking this as a legitimate question. Is there a middle ground we can find?

Neither of the two men above identified as transgender. The conservative activist man in the first article claimed that when he went in to protest a recently passed law that allowed transpeople to use the bathrooms of that they identify themselves as.

As for the second, that man also did not identify as transgender and was rightfully caught. Besides ordinances that allow transpeople to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with, unlike what you think, does not invalidate 18 U.S. Code § 1801 dealing with Video voyeurism.