North Carolina Overturns LGBT-Discrimination Bans

[IceAgeComing]

A friend of mine just told me about this, its quite possibly the most ridiculous law I've ever seen passed in an incredibly undemocratic way.  Its just the sheer variety of bad stuff that they managed to fit into the bill that makes it totally mental - especially the minimum wage stuff, it screams of "what .  It shows how increased visibility for a minority group can initially be a curse since it leads to bigoted rubbish like this getting through, which would probably be less likely than before trans issues began to feature regularly in the news - the whole thing just seems like a huge backlash of the sort that gay people got in many places in the eighties.

Is there any chance of the worst elements of this being overridden in the courts?

The bathroom issue is a completely separate issue

Of course you would think so.

It's just part of the big plan to end this transgender sideshow:

1. States and the federal government should not allow legal gender marker changes.

2. Transgender people should not have any legal protections against discrimination, nor should anyone be forced to respect their identity.

3. Transgender people should not be legally allowed to use facilities in accordance with their gender identity.

4. Medical coverage related to transition should not be provided by the government, or any other entity.

5. Transgender people should not be allowed to serve in the military.

jesus christ i don't want to know how you managed to internalise this hate towards a harmless group of people

[Alcon]

Assuming I'm reading numbers 1 and 4 correctly, you actually want to outright ban sex reassignment surgery? WTF, dude?

I read him as opposing government funding for the surgeries, and government recognition of the surgeries as changing one's legal gender -- the one on their ID.  And he thinks even private health insurance shouldn't pay for gender reassignment.

The last one is especially odious.  I think it's pretty clear that it's extremely therapeutic for some people.  Unless this is part of some bizarro objection to any sort of therapy related to mental well-being, I have no idea how Wolverine can endorse that position, besides valuing his contempt more than evidence.

[This account no longer in use.]

His 4th item very clearly suggests banning gender reassignment surgery.

[Alcon]

His 4th item very clearly suggests banning gender reassignment surgery.

I'm not sure I read it that way.  I think he's saying it's not medically therapeutic, and shouldn't be covered by insurance, not necessarily that it should be banned.  But I wouldn't be surprised.  It seems like his position may be more based on passive-aggressive spite than anything.

[Antonio the Sixth]

His 4th item very clearly suggests banning gender reassignment surgery.

I'm not sure I read it that way.  I think he's saying it's not medically therapeutic, and shouldn't be covered by insurance, not necessarily that it should be banned.  But I wouldn't be surprised.  It seems like his position may be more based on passive-aggressive spite than anything.

His aggressiveness seems quite active to me.

[IceAgeComing]

I think it's pretty clear that it's extremely therapeutic for some people.

I'd change that to "most people"; I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure that the medical consensus is that gender reassignment surgery is by far the best way of dealing with gender dysphoria in most cases - perhaps someone that is better informed can confirm that or not.  Denying that and suggesting that there are other ways of "treating" gender dysphoria is IMO equivalent to the people that say that you can "cure" being gay, its a ridiculous position to hold regardless of your opinion of trans people.  It wouldn't be covered by the NHS here if it wasn't seen as medically the right thing to do; they don't cover lots of expensive things that ideally they would so I don't see why they would spend money on something that its unnecessary.

[Figueira]

A friend of mine just told me about this, its quite possibly the most ridiculous law I've ever seen passed in an incredibly undemocratic way.  Its just the sheer variety of bad stuff that they managed to fit into the bill that makes it totally mental - especially the minimum wage stuff, it screams of "what .  It shows how increased visibility for a minority group can initially be a curse since it leads to bigoted rubbish like this getting through, which would probably be less likely than before trans issues began to feature regularly in the news - the whole thing just seems like a huge backlash of the sort that gay people got in many places in the eighties.

Is there any chance of the worst elements of this being overridden in the courts?

The bathroom issue is a completely separate issue

Of course you would think so.

It's just part of the big plan to end this transgender sideshow:

1. States and the federal government should not allow legal gender marker changes.

2. Transgender people should not have any legal protections against discrimination, nor should anyone be forced to respect their identity.

3. Transgender people should not be legally allowed to use facilities in accordance with their gender identity.

4. Medical coverage related to transition should not be provided by the government, or any other entity.

5. Transgender people should not be allowed to serve in the military.

jesus christ i don't want to know how you managed to internalise this hate towards a harmless group of people

Hey, another G-UK avatar! I'm not actually British or Northern Irish but still, yay!

Wolverine, I'm glad people like you are only going to get less powerful as time goes on. Also, I'm pro-choice, but don't insult the anti-abortion crowd by comparing yourself to them.

[Badger]

folks, this thread has strayed FAR off the topic at hand to become a debate over Wolverine's views on Transgender persons. please nix further discussion along those lines or i'll have to lock the thread. thnx.

[RightBehind]

LGBT are people too. They must be protected.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??  And, we can't have men in the ladies' room and vice versa.  Great job, NC- and please follow suit, GA!!

[Ban my account ffs!]

I've struggled a bit with the concept of transgenderism.. but the trans people I've met in person have all been wonderful people very sure of their decisions.

So, I fully support trans people and sex reassignment surgery.  I just think it should be a long, drawn out process with every opportunity to change your mind.

As for the trans movement being synonymous with the gay movement... there are issues there that need to be resolved and they should both be their own movements alongside each other fighting for the same thing.  Just don't expect gays to totally understand a trans person's plight because they are gay and vice versa.  We're different things...

[Ban my account ffs!]

as for North Carolina... what the hell is the matter with you people?  Do you really think this will help anyone?  Do you think it's doing anyone any good?

If you think you're somehow pleasing God by doing this... think again.  God is pretty sick and tired of your bullsh**t.

[This account no longer in use.]

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??  And, we can't have men in the ladies' room and vice versa.  Great job, NC- and please follow suit, GA!!

I'm assuming that you've never met any transgender people, or LGBT+ people, or humans?

[IceAgeComing]

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??

generally when trying to make a point, you should avoid making a nice big strawman

Gender Dysphoria is a real thing, and gender reassignment is, for most people, the best way of dealing with it.  There has been research looking into what might cause it and although nothing is at all clear (nor probably will it ever be) some studies have found that there are some similarities between the brain anatomy of Women and MTF transpeople (and vice versa) and also some other stuff that I couldn't really understand because I gave up Biology two years into High School - although again nothing conclusive, its one of those "further research needed!" things that all research into anything starts out with.  Thinking that your a cat or a ghost or all the other rubbish that people try to link trans issues with is different because medical research has not found those to be legitimate medical issues: its chalk and cheese.

But I don't actually think that any of that really matters.  I don't see how letting trans people live as their real gender affects me as a cis guy at all, and I just think that pursuing policies like this is just mean and nasty.  I don't see how I lose out because Britain has a system that allows people who may not have the same anatomy as me pee in a Male toilet, or put "M" on their passport, or do whatever else they want to do with their life.  That's what my parents taught me to think when I was growing up, and I think that its a very good way of looking at these sort of things, its a bit Libertarian-y but on this it makes sense.

I just think it should be a long, drawn out process with every opportunity to change your mind.

I dunno what the guidance is in the US but in the UK it already is, even not factoring in the shockingly long NHS waiting lists that force many people to go private.  It could have changed since I last looked into it (did some voluntary work which involved looking up this sort of stuff a few years ago, it could have changed) you have to live as the gender that you identify as for a year before you become eligible for reassignment surgery, although during that time hormones are available and that's as big a part of the process as anything from what I've been told.  That time is there purely to make sure that the person wanting to transition isn't making a mistake and is probably reasonable, although there could be arguments against it.  This is the theory, according to a Guardian report from last year there are huge delays of over a year before some people get forwarded to a gender clinic, followed by more delays before getting surgery, which will especially hurt lower income trans people that can't afford private healthcare.  Not all trans people get surgery though, its actually quite rare for trans men, apparently because the medical procedures for that are less developed and more risky, and surgery is not required to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (the legal document that officially recognises a change in legal gender although you can change gender marks on some documents well before that - I'm pretty sure the only thing that the GRC changes is your birth certificate).  This could have changed since I had to look into it, although I don't think there has been any big legal changes at least.  I know that the government is apparently considering moving to a self-definition policy like Ireland has (which I support), but I'm not entirely convinced that its something that the Tories will pursue even though there should be a majority in parliament for it because a lot of Tory MPs would vote against it.

It could be different in America, I tried to look up the laws there just now and frankly it seems like a right muddle because its a state issue, and lots of states don't seem to have updated their laws at all on the thing.

I dunno whether this is straying off topic again: if it is I'm sorry!

[This account no longer in use.]

Welcome to the forum, IceAgeComing. First off, you should ignore most posts made by ExtremeRepublican, they tend to make as much sense as Da-Jon posts.

[Ban my account ffs!]

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??  And, we can't have men in the ladies' room and vice versa.  Great job, NC- and please follow suit, GA!!

I'm just glad that as a gay, I get to use the bathroom with you.

Unfortunately, this guy will, by law, have to use the bathroom with your girlfriend.

[IceAgeComing]

Always give someone a chance before judging them, that's my thinking.

although hold hell that post was much longer than it was meant to be, hopefully its not incredibly boring.  its something that i feel quite strongly about, as you can probably tell by the number of times that i've posted in this thread...

[This account no longer in use.]

Unfortunately, this guy will, by law, have to use the bathroom with your girlfriend.

You can just tell that most of these people have never seen a transgender man.

[Flake]

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??  And, we can't have men in the ladies' room and vice versa.  Great job, NC- and please follow suit, GA!!

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??

generally when trying to make a point, you should avoid making a nice big strawman

Gender Dysphoria is a real thing, and gender reassignment is, for most people, the best way of dealing with it.  There has been research looking into what might cause it and although nothing is at all clear (nor probably will it ever be) some studies have found that there are some similarities between the brain anatomy of Women and MTF transpeople (and vice versa) and also some other stuff that I couldn't really understand because I gave up Biology two years into High School - although again nothing conclusive, its one of those "further research needed!" things that all research into anything starts out with.  Thinking that your a cat or a ghost or all the other rubbish that people try to link trans issues with is different because medical research has not found those to be legitimate medical issues: its chalk and cheese.

But I don't actually think that any of that really matters.  I don't see how letting trans people live as their real gender affects me as a cis guy at all, and I just think that pursuing policies like this is just mean and nasty.  I don't see how I lose out because Britain has a system that allows people who may not have the same anatomy as me pee in a Male toilet, or put "M" on their passport, or do whatever else they want to do with their life.  That's what my parents taught me to think when I was growing up, and I think that its a very good way of looking at these sort of things, its a bit Libertarian-y but on this it makes sense.

I just think it should be a long, drawn out process with every opportunity to change your mind.

I dunno what the guidance is in the US but in the UK it already is, even not factoring in the shockingly long NHS waiting lists that force many people to go private.  It could have changed since I last looked into it (did some voluntary work which involved looking up this sort of stuff a few years ago, it could have changed) you have to live as the gender that you identify as for a year before you become eligible for reassignment surgery, although during that time hormones are available and that's as big a part of the process as anything from what I've been told.  That time is there purely to make sure that the person wanting to transition isn't making a mistake and is probably reasonable, although there could be arguments against it.  This is the theory, according to a Guardian report from last year there are huge delays of over a year before some people get forwarded to a gender clinic, followed by more delays before getting surgery, which will especially hurt lower income trans people that can't afford private healthcare.  Not all trans people get surgery though, its actually quite rare for trans men, apparently because the medical procedures for that are less developed and more risky, and surgery is not required to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (the legal document that officially recognises a change in legal gender although you can change gender marks on some documents well before that - I'm pretty sure the only thing that the GRC changes is your birth certificate).  This could have changed since I had to look into it, although I don't think there has been any big legal changes at least.  I know that the government is apparently considering moving to a self-definition policy like Ireland has (which I support), but I'm not entirely convinced that its something that the Tories will pursue even though there should be a majority in parliament for it because a lot of Tory MPs would vote against it.

It could be different in America, I tried to look up the laws there just now and frankly it seems like a right muddle because its a state issue, and lots of states don't seem to have updated their laws at all on the thing.

I dunno whether this is straying off topic again: if it is I'm sorry!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ All of this

[Wells]

Google, PayPal, and the NBA, along with a bunch of other businesses have come out against this law. Hopefully the North Carolina Republicans in government start to see sense.
I just can't believe that discrimination is legal somewhere in the United States in 2016. Horrible.

[Wells]

Wait a moment, exactly what is the minimum wage thing doing in a LGBT bill?

There is? Can you link me to a source that backs this up? I haven't found anything to support this.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Wait a moment, exactly what is the minimum wage thing doing in a LGBT bill?

There is? Can you link me to a source that backs this up? I haven't found anything to support this.

Go back to the OP and read the article it links to carefully.

[Figueira]

Google, PayPal, and the NBA, along with a bunch of other businesses have come out against this law. Hopefully the North Carolina Republicans in government start to see sense.
I just can't believe that discrimination is legal somewhere in the United States in 2016. Horrible.

Unfortunately it's legal in a lot more places than that.

[progressive85]

NC just passed this anti-gay, anti-trans bill.  It's probably the most stupid thing that's ever been cooked up by an activist legislature. 

I doubt that any one of the people that voted for it, including the Governor, even have the faintest idea about what transgender means.

The conservatives suggest that this is because they don't want men going into women's bathrooms?

Do they have any idea what trans people look like?

These are the guys that will be now walking into women's restrooms because of this stupid-ass law:










So the law is going to do exactly what it was trying to stop:

It's going to put men in women's bathrooms.

And teenage girls will be forced to go into men's bathrooms:



Good job, NC Republicans.  Maybe next time you might want to use your brains when writing a law.

[afleitch]

As the above pictures demonstrate, I do love that laws likes these trying to stop 'women' using mens rooms and 'men' (commas not mine) using womens rooms actually ends up with women using mens rooms and men using womens rooms.