Security and political correctness

[dead0man]

I offer evidence based on the fact that terrorists are mostly made up of Arab Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa, as well as Afghan and Pakistani Muslims

The "heartland" as it were.

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Iran is one of the top exporters of terror world wide.  Turkey is ALWAYS having sh**t blow up.  We did Indonesia in the last thread.  They ain't the peaceful example of Muslims you might want them to be or wish that they were.  India?  Are you kidding me?  The Philippines, Thailand, anyplace that has a sizable Muslim community has dealt with Islamic terrorism....and many that don't have a sizable Muslim community have dealt with it.

Yes I understand that pointing these things out makes me a racist in the eyes of morons, I'm ok with that.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Also, there's no such thing as "political correctness." It's called being sensitive to the fact that people who are different than you are still entitled to respect as human beings. I understand that is a difficult concept for some Republicans.

It's not that, Hagrid. People like you are causing more problems because you're afraid to speak the truth. The truth needs to be told about what caused what happened today.

hagrid is the one telling the truth here, sweetie.

The truth about what?

about """political correctness"""

It kind of irritates me that I've seen you post hundreds of snarky one-liner replies, but I'm not sure I've ever seen you engage in a single substantive discussion.

there is no substantive discussion to be had with someone who believes "political correctness" is about beïng "afraid to speak the truth". it's the same level of absurdity as the "atheïsts know god exists but don't want to admit it because they're evil or whatever" types.

OK, that may be in this case, but I meant more generally.  Maybe you only reply to completely merit-free arguments (why?) or maybe you think that all arguments you disagree with are merit-free (really?)...

Idk, why attack the weakest argument you see and then bounce?  I don't get it

that's fair. often it's a case of someone else (usually crabcake lol) already having made my argument better than i could have.

Danke schon

[136or142]

I offer evidence based on the fact that terrorists are mostly made up of Arab Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa, as well as Afghan and Pakistani Muslims

The "heartland" as it were.

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Iran is one of the top exporters of terror world wide.  Turkey is ALWAYS having sh**t blow up.  We did Indonesia in the last thread.  They ain't the peaceful example of Muslims you might want them to be or wish that they were.  India?  Are you kidding me?  The Philippines, Thailand, anyplace that has a sizable Muslim community has dealt with Islamic terrorism....and many that don't have a sizable Muslim community have dealt with it.

Yes I understand that pointing these things out makes me a racist in the eyes of morons, I'm ok with that.

And historically the U.S has been one of the top invaders of sovereign nations worldwide.  So, does that make the U.S an exporter of terrorism or does it mean that the U.S itself has historically engaged in terrorism?

[136or142]

Not and be accurate:

"1.  Scripture does not condone such acts, whereas the Jihadists can point to all sorts of Qu'ranic support for what they do. "

There are several passages in the Bible about stoning people.  

Yes, the most important of which is John 8:7, the New International translation of which reads:

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We are human; all sin and fall short of the glory of God. That's the Christian view; the Jihadists seem to believe otherwise.

I'd be interested to know if Adam can provide a passage in the Gospels which condones such things.

Not one, and not by myself, but from this site, there are several passages cited.

I hope it's ok to post the entire article here:

What the Bible says about stoning

Everybody must get stoned

1.For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13

2.For taking "accursed things"
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26

3.For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

4.For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

5.For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

6.For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

7.For worshipping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

8.For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

9.For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

10.For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

11.For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

12.For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

Note: There is an interesting story in John 8 about a woman caught in adultery. It is often used to show that Jesus was opposed to stoning. Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't clearly say that he is, and the story may not belong in the Bible anyway, since it is not found in the oldest and best manuscripts.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/stoning.html

I don't know you, but I'm mostly into religion into the way that I'm into most things: in an academic sense, and I knew of several of these passages.  So, my guess is is that you are like a lot of Christians and that your knowledge of the Bible is limited to a handful or slightly more passages of The Bible and that you've never actually read the entire Bible.

As a Jew myself, I've never read the New Testament, but I have read roughly the first half of the Old Testament several times.

So, I don't know what the Quran says, but I think it would have to be an awful lot worse than this to be all the different from the Bible in terms of telling its followers to kill other people.

[SillyAmerican]

Not and be accurate:

"1.  Scripture does not condone such acts, whereas the Jihadists can point to all sorts of Qu'ranic support for what they do. "

There are several passages in the Bible about stoning people.  

Yes, the most important of which is John 8:7, the New International translation of which reads:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

We are human; all sin and fall short of the glory of God. That's the Christian view; the Jihadists seem to believe otherwise.

I'd be interested to know if Adam can provide a passage in the Gospels which condones such things.

Not one, and not by myself, but from this site, there are several passages cited.

<several passages cited about when a person should be stoned according to the Old Testament>

Note: There is an interesting story in John 8 about a woman caught in adultery. It is often used to show that Jesus was opposed to stoning. Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't clearly say that he is, and the story may not belong in the Bible anyway, since it is not found in the oldest and best manuscripts.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/stoning.html

I don't know you, but I'm mostly into religion into the way that I'm into most things: in an academic sense, and I knew of several of these passages.  So, my guess is is that you are like a lot of Christians and that your knowledge of the Bible is limited to a handful or slightly more passages of The Bible and that you've never actually read the entire Bible.

As a Jew myself, I've never read the New Testament, but I have read roughly the first half of the Old Testament several times.

So, I don't know what the Quran says, but I think it would have to be an awful lot worse than this to be all the different from the Bible in terms of telling its followers to kill other people.

Like you, I am a student of the Word, and don't profess any expertise in this regard, but enjoy reading the commentary of those who do.

In the Hebrew Bible, as you note, under the law are given many cases in which stoning is prescribed. However, it is important to understand the supersession of the Old Covenant (including traditional Jewish law, or halakha) by the New Covenant and Christian theology. (See the Law and Gospel entry of wikipedia for more on this).

Matthew Flannagan of the Christian Research Institute writes an interesting article on this subject in which he offers two important points:

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I do know that the New Testament deals much more with God's grace than with the law, per se. Hopefully, this is helpful.

[136or142]

That is one interpretation of the Bible's old and new Testaments that many Christians follow.  However, other Christians do not agree with that and believe that all of the teachings in the Old Testament are meant to apply to Christians.  

That is the exact same with Islam and the Quran. There are  some Muslims who believe that the preachings in the Quran calling for Jihad mean that they are supposed to fight a war against 'the Infidels' and there are many Muslims who do not agree with that.

Yet, you seem to want your interpretation of the Bible to be taken as the version that all Christians believe at the same time as you deny the vast majority of Muslims who say that the cult of ISIL does not reflect their understanding of the Quran.

You asked for Biblical passages that condoned stoning, and I not only showed you passages that condoned that practice but called for it.  Now your defense seems to be "we Christians don't believe those passages!"  

If you plan to keep moving the goalposts please let me know so that I can ignore you.

Of course I realize that while there are a small number of extremists who believe they are Muslims who are carrying out acts of terror on innocent populations there are no people who claim to be Christians who are doing the same thing (at least not that I'm aware of.  The lunatics in Oregon did claim to be Christians but they never actually ended up killing anybody.)

However, I don't think this necessarily proves anything other than the nature of asymmetrical warfare.  Christians in Western Nations in Europe and North America are basically on top and in control of much of the world, so there is no need for any demented group that claims to be inspired by Christian teachings to engage in terrorism.  That the lunatic Ted Cruz gets a fair amount of support for his call for 'targeted carpet bombings' (editorial note: uh what?)  to destroy ISIL shows to me that his followers supporters are little to no better than ISIL.

[SillyAmerican]

That is one interpretation of the Bible's old and new Testaments that many Christians follow.  However, other Christians do not agree with that and believe that all of the teachings in the Old Testament are meant to apply to Christians.  

That is the exact same with Islam and the Quran. There are  some Muslims who believe that the preachings in the Quran calling for Jihad mean that they are supposed to fight a war against 'the Infidels' and there are many Muslims who do not agree with that.

Yet, you seem to want your interpretation of the Bible to be taken as the version that all Christians believe at the same time as you deny the vast majority of Muslims who say that the cult of ISIL does not reflect their understanding of the Quran.

You asked for Biblical passages that condoned stoning, and I not only showed you passages that condoned that practice but called for it.  Now your defense seems to be "we Christians don't believe those passages!"  

If you plan to keep moving the goalposts please let me know so that I can ignore you.

Of course I realize that while there are a small number of extremists who believe they are Muslims who are carrying out acts of terror on innocent populations there are no people who claim to be Christians who are doing the same thing (at least not that I'm aware of.  The lunatics in Oregon did claim to be Christians but they never actually ended up killing anybody.)

However, I don't think this necessarily proves anything other than the nature of asymmetrical warfare.  Christians in Western Nations in Europe and North America are basically on top and in control of much of the world, so there is no need for any demented group that claims to be inspired by Christian teachings to engage in terrorism.  That the lunatic Ted Cruz gets a fair amount of support for his call for 'targeted carpet bombings' (editorial note: uh what?)  to destroy ISIL shows to me that his followers supporters are little to no better than ISIL.

Sorry that you feel I'm "moving the goalposts". I asked for indications of calls to violence from within the Christian scriptures, which is to say, the New Testament. You are correct in pointing out that a few Christians believe that the teachings of the law within the Old Testament are meant to apply to Christians as well, but I think you'll find the vast majority of Christians believing that the main commandment of Jesus is that we remain in the love of God, and that only by doing so will we be able to love God and our neighbors properly.

And yes, I agree with you, true Christianity is quite difficult when faced with those who are willing to kill and destroy in the name of their understanding of what God desires. How should a Christian respond to this? Mathew 5:43-45 says:

"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous..."

As I say, not the easiest of approaches to take, but it's right there for folks to consider.

And to Christians everywhere, Good Friday brings the promise of an excellent Sunday...

[136or142]

I should probably let this goal on Good Friday, but given the number of Christians who speak out against homosexuality using Old Testament Scripture (especially from Leviticus) I'm not sure that the vast majority of Christians could tell whether a passage in the Bible came from the Old Testament or the New Testament, and, more importantly, I'm far from convinced that the 'vast majority' of Christians only follow the teachings of the New Testament.


If you want to me to believe that, then please show me that the vast majority of Christians actually have no problem with homosexuality.  As I wrote above, I haven't read the New Testament but my understanding is that the only passages in the New Testament that are anti homosexual are quotes from Paul.  Now, Paul, while he was an Apostle, was just a man, and I don't believe Christians are supposed to regard as divinely inspired the words of any human, even an Apostle.

There may be one or two other passages in the New Testament that can possibly be interpreted as speaking out against homosexual acts, but there is also the quote from Jesus to "love thy neighbor as thyself."  

So, again, if Christians aren't supposed to follow the Old Testament, then where does all this hatred from Christians against homosexuals come from, and why do all these Christians quote the Old Testament book Leviticus as justification for their hatred?

You can use the word 'dislike' if you don't like my term 'hate/hatred.'

[SillyAmerican]

I should probably let this goal on Good Friday, but given the number of Christians who speak out against homosexuality using Old Testament Scripture (especially from Leviticus) I'm not sure that the vast majority of Christians could tell whether a passage in the Bible came from the Old Testament or the New Testament, and, more importantly, I'm far from convinced that the 'vast majority' of Christians only follow the teachings of the New Testament.

If you want to me to believe that, then please show me that the vast majority of Christians actually have no problem with homosexuality.  As I wrote above, I haven't read the New Testament but my understanding is that the only passages in the New Testament that are anti homosexual are quotes from Paul.  Now, Paul, while he was an Apostle, was just a man, and I don't believe Christians are supposed to regard as divinely inspired the words of any human, even an Apostle.

There may be one or two other passages in the New Testament that can possibly be interpreted as speaking out against homosexual acts, but there is also the quote from Jesus to "love thy neighbor as thyself."  

So, again, if Christians aren't supposed to follow the Old Testament, then where does all this hatred from Christians against homosexuals come from, and why do all these Christians quote the Old Testament book Leviticus as justification for their hatred?

You can use the word 'dislike' if you don't like my term 'hate/hatred.'

My understanding of the issue of Christianity and homosexual acts is as described in this paper. Basically, "the Biblical and Christian view of homosexuality is that it is wrong, but God’s grace -- just like it did for us -- offers freedom from sin to all people." Christians don't "hate" sinners; all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

That said, you are absolutely right, there are an awful lot of "Christians" who are willing to pick up a stone and throw it, thinking themselves better than their neighbor. Is this in keeping with the teachings of Christ? I don't think so.

Matthew 7:2-4:
"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?"

This Easter weekend, hear the echo of these words:  Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!