Opinion of person-first language
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  Opinion of person-first language
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Author Topic: Opinion of person-first language  (Read 449 times)
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« on: March 26, 2016, 10:09:59 AM »

Person-first language is a form of linguistic prescriptivism governing how one is supposed to refer to disabled people. Instead of saying things like, er, 'disabled people', one is supposed to say 'people with disabilities', 'people who are blind', 'people who are deaf', 'people with schizophrenia', 'people with autism', et cetera. The idea is that this foregrounds the humanity of the people being referred to and doesn't reduce them to just an example of or object lesson in their disability.

This is generally done (and enforced, to the extent that it is enforced) by well-meaning non-disabled people without regard for the fact that many disabled people, especially blind, deaf, and autistic people, really hate it. They/we hate it because in insistently hammering home that they/we are people, often multiple times a sentence, it has the counterproductive effect of making disability seem like something that has to be compensated for, not only in the 'adaptive' sense but in the sense of making some sort of weird implied apology for it. It also draws attention to what it's purporting to downplay, since blatantly contorting a sentence to shove an adjective after the noun is strange-sounding enough to draw attention to that noun phrase.

Massive HL (disabled).
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DavidB.
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 11:49:26 AM »

It is done with the best intentions, so I won't be too harsh, but I really don't think being this sensitive is necessary, especially since disabled people know that they are disabled. As a non-disabled person one won't be the first to mention it, so that person should just avoid making it something awkward. It can be a sensitive topic, but it shouldn't be awkward. Language like this makes it awkward.

In the same category, people often want to avoid saying "Jews" and talk about "Jewish people" instead, lol. In Dutch it sounds even more cringeworthy.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2016, 01:33:02 PM »

"People with _" isn't too bad since it doesn't really distort the sentence and, at least to a non-native speaker like me, feels pretty natural. It wouldn't work in French or Italian, though, so maybe I'm wrong.

"People who are _" sounds terrible, yeah.

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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2016, 01:40:56 PM »

it's not inherently bad but using it against the wishes of the relevant people is pretty skeezy, yeah.
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2016, 02:17:48 PM »

Err please use the correct nomenclature, it's not HL, it's LWIH (Language which is horrible).
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cxs018
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2016, 02:37:18 PM »

it's not inherently bad but using it against the wishes of the relevant people is pretty skeezy, yeah.
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Orthogonian Society Treasurer
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2016, 02:42:51 PM »

No opinion (normal)
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Clarko95 📚💰📈
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2016, 02:44:12 PM »

Going out of your way to constantly and intentionally use that order in conversation is dumb, but the few times I discuss the disabled I interchange ("the disabled/people with disabilites/disabled people/deaf people/the deaf/blind people/the blind/people who are____/those with___") forms regularly without even thinking about it. Depends on how it flows in my sentence and the point I'm trying to make


Didn't even know people did consciously until this thread, so that's something new I learned today. Tongue
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2016, 02:46:18 PM »


Then why comment?
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2016, 02:47:12 PM »

HL, it's stilted at best, condescending at worst, and excellent example of political correctness taken too far.
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2016, 04:04:23 PM »

HL, it's stilted at best, condescending at worst, and excellent example of political correctness taken too far.

The reaction against it is just as PC isn't it?   I really don't follow the fierce opposition to this.  Referring to someone as "a person" is some kind of an insult?  I think you have to consider the history of mental illness and recognize what the effect of language has been in the past.  It's been easier for society to exclude a "schizophrenic" than " a person with schizophrenia."  Either way it is a medical diagnosis, so it's not like the latter is making something into the disease that the former isn't. 
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Cranberry
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2016, 04:19:24 PM »

If used in good intentions and not in a way that the sentence seems to constructed around it and draws, as the OP already mentioned, the exact opposite reaction that it was intended to, then there are certainly worse ways to phrase it. But as a general rule, it is always best just to see what the person in question refers to themselves, what they want to be used.

Since others have already brought up their native languages as well, in German there is actually one case where it makes sense to me to use the "people with..." ("Menschen mit...") construction, as the word "disabled" ("Behinderte") has kind of a negative connotation due to being used as a very, very common slur (it's also used in a participle form - "you're so disabled" might sound weird in English, but "du bist so behindert" is a very common, kind of "light slur" in German - similar to "you're so silly/foolish/stupid" in English). So it makes sense in that specific case to evade the word "disabled" and instead opt for the more sensitive "people with disabilites" ("Menschen mit Behinderungen") phrasing.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2016, 04:24:10 PM »

HL, it's stilted at best, condescending at worst, and excellent example of political correctness taken too far.

The reaction against it is just as PC isn't it?   I really don't follow the fierce opposition to this.  Referring to someone as "a person" is some kind of an insult?  I think you have to consider the history of mental illness and recognize what the effect of language has been in the past.  It's been easier for society to exclude a "schizophrenic" than " a person with schizophrenia."  Either way it is a medical diagnosis, so it's not like the latter is making something into the disease that the former isn't. 

The issue that I and many other disabled people have is that it comes across as patronizing (and simply isn't what many of us prefer), not that it's overtly insulting somehow. In general I think it's probably best for people who aren't operating within some sort of specific ~context~ for these things to do what Clarko does, and to ask the person or people they're talking to or about if a non-awkward time to ask comes up. I'm not saying that this sort of sentence construction is always and in all contexts awful and to be avoided at all costs, just that mandating it as a rule of usage or style is bad, doubly so when it's non-disabled people insisting on using it over disabled people's objections.

Since others have already brought up their native languages as well, in German there is actually one case where it makes sense to me to use the "people with..." ("Menschen mit...") construction, as the word "disabled" ("Behinderte") has kind of a negative connotation due to being used as a very, very common slur (it's also used in a participle form - "you're so disabled" might sound weird in English, but "du bist so behindert" is a very common, kind of "light slur" in German - similar to "you're so silly/foolish/stupid" in English). So it makes sense in that specific case to evade the word "disabled" and instead opt for the more sensitive "people with disabilites" ("Menschen mit Behinderungen") phrasing.

Yeah, that makes sense.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2016, 04:49:44 PM »

I'm a bit ashamed to admit this, but I've never heard of the "first-person language" before.

Btw, I hope you'll permitt me to say that I hope your disability is not a very serious one, Nathan.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2016, 04:57:51 PM »

I'd much rather be called a blind person than a "person who is blind." That's just awkward semantic games.
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2016, 05:55:28 PM »

I dont prefer it.  My mom was disabled and referred to herself as a crip...as in a cripple.  

I think "disabled person" is best or simply "the disabled" in aggregate.  This whole "person who is differently abled" is just a sad way of trying to fix peoples feelings about themselves or others using semantics...that never works.  Context...intention...educating people...those things matter.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2016, 06:03:13 PM »

Referring to someone as "a person" is some kind of an insult?

absolutely

for the newbies: that used to be my username
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Zioneer
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2016, 11:40:01 PM »

As someone with a disability (Aspergers), it's really condescending and annoying. There's cases where it's more appropriate, but in the vast majority of cases, it's obnoxious. Call me disabled, I may dispute to what degree I am disabled, but saying "a person with disability" is just grammarian and PC nonsense. And I usually agree with stuff others would refer to as SJW or PC.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2016, 11:44:55 PM »

for the newbies: that used to be my username

Holy crap, I just realized it's not anymore. Shocked Did you ask Dave to have it changed?
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2016, 05:17:24 AM »

for the newbies: that used to be my username

Holy crap, I just realized it's not anymore. Shocked Did you ask Dave to have it changed?

yeah
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