Are you sick of the 'Bathroom Question'?

[Green Line]

There are pages and pages of threads with many posters more articulate than me trying to explain in great detail to f**king bigots like you why they are f**king bigots. Everybody is sick of these arguments now - which, in the case you missed it, is the whole point of this thread.

So if you want to keep holding horrible, hateful views, be my guest. That's your problem. Just have the decency to not advertise them so much.

How is it that having people that have a penis use the bathrooms/locker rooms marked "Men", and people who don't have a penis use the bathrooms/locker rooms marked "Women", why is that "hateful"? With all of these horrible, hateful views that you claim I have, I just need to point out that I'm the one who's being called a "f**king bigot" by you; your loving kindness is simply overwhelming. I suppose I will have to go in search of those pages and pages of posts by people more articulate than you; maybe they'd be willing to carry on a civil discussion...

I love your essentialist distinction between men and women. A man is anybody with a penis. A woman is anybody without a penis. I honestly couldn't make this up.

Since when is that a crazy thing to think?  I mean, that's what nearly all of us here were likely brought up believing and being taught.  I understand that these definitions have been challenged in the last 3-4 years but it's really not a far out statement.

[Slander and/or Libel]

You honestly think it's not crazy to think the defining thing about womanhood is the lack of a penis?

[SillyAmerican]

People should be able to use the bathroom that matches the gender they identify with.  Whats the harm? Obviously there can be exceptions to prevent big strong butch male-to-females who could overpower women from entering, but that wouldn't apply to most transgenders.

And I say people should use the bathroom that matches the genitals they currently have. What's the harm?

If we assume that males and females have different psychological patterns, and we assume transgender people exist, then couldn't somebody be transgendered because they have psychological patterns opposite of their birth gender?

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

I love your essentialist distinction between men and women. A man is anybody with a penis. A woman is anybody without a penis. I honestly couldn't make this up.

Yeah, sorry, I fear I'm showing my age. When I grew up, a man had a penis, and a woman had a vagina; guilty as charged. How are we defining "man" and "woman" these days? I guess I should have asked at the outset, to avoid confusion...

[Goldwater]

If we assume that males and females have different psychological patterns, and we assume transgender people exist, then couldn't somebody be transgendered because they have psychological patterns opposite of their birth gender?

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

You're the one that brought up psychological pattern as an issue, not me. In any case, attempting to legislate these things seems like a pointless waste of time to me.

[SillyAmerican]

You honestly think it's not crazy to think the defining thing about womanhood is the lack of a penis?

Lest anyone else think I'm daft, here are the dictionary.com defintions of the noun "male":

1. a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
2. an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete.
3. Botany. a staminate plant.

[SteveRogers]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

[SillyAmerican]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

[SteveRogers]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

[Joe Republic]

Who's the small government republican checking people's genitals for compliance when they enter the bathroom?

In the case of the public bathroom in the town of Oriental, NC, her name is Kim Daniels.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

So let's say you don't accept transpeople's identified gender. Fine, whatever. Who cares. I'm not going to call you a bigot or anything, because you'd probably get triggered and cry; but it doesn't really affect my life what you think. But even if you do have some sort of grudge against transpeople, you have to accept the effect of hormones. Hormone Replacement Therapy (I.e. treating transpeople with their identified hormones) will cause psychological patterns to resemble the identified gender. So you may not think the gentleman posted earlier is a man because of his vagina, but that would make him instead a testosterone-infused lesbian. I highly doubt most cis women really want a 'dyke on steroids' in their bathroom. Certainly they are 'safer' than a trans woman on Spiro and oestrogen who reach the average agrrssion levels of cis women after about a few weeks (can't remember the exact study,).

Although I do like Silly's argument. Who knew that the most treasured cultural tradition of all Western civilisation was genital-seperated public toilets?

[Joe Republic]

[afleitch]

My position is based on protecting our women and children against men masking themselves as transgendered just to have whatever way they want with them.

What bathroom should he use?

Still waiting JCL.

What bathroom should this person use and why?

[SillyAmerican]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

Nope. Read my comment again: I didn't say anything about one's birth certificate, I mentioned a drivers license (which I assume gets updated periodically). If you identify as a man, and have the equipment of a man, then use the bathroom designated as being for men. It's a fairly straight forward idea -- nothing "obtuse" about it.

And just to be clear, the folks pushing for clarification of this issue don't include me: I know which bathroom I should use. But yes, if we need to legislate such things (which apparently, and unfortunately, we do), I am advocating for a law that would require someone who is identified as a male on their government issued ID to use the bathroom designated for men, and vice versa.

[Slander and/or Libel]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

Nope. Read my comment again: I didn't say anything about one's birth certificate, I mentioned a drivers license (which I assume gets updated periodically). If you identify as a man, and have the equipment of a man, then use the bathroom designated as being for men. It's a fairly straight forward idea -- nothing "obtuse" about it.

This is not all that you were saying before. You were saying if you identify as a man, present to the world as a man, and have the "equipment" of a woman, then you have to use the woman's restroom.

[SillyAmerican]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

Nope. Read my comment again: I didn't say anything about one's birth certificate, I mentioned a drivers license (which I assume gets updated periodically). If you identify as a man, and have the equipment of a man, then use the bathroom designated as being for men. It's a fairly straight forward idea -- nothing "obtuse" about it.

This is not all that you were saying before. You were saying if you identify as a man, present to the world as a man, and have the "equipment" of a woman, then you have to use the woman's restroom.

Correct. Because in the delineation I propose, identifying as a man and presenting yourself to the world as a man, these do not in point of fact make you a man. So what is it that a man has that a woman doesn't?

[Slander and/or Libel]

Are you proposing to have somebody checking genitals at the door?

[SillyAmerican]

Are you proposing to have somebody checking genitals at the door?

Nope. I propose leaving things as they are today, which relies on the honor system. (And as I've said, the fact that we have to go through this exercise at all is a little bit crazy, but hey, there are some who are calling for clarification, so here's the clarification I would propose...).

[Slander and/or Libel]

Are you proposing to have somebody checking genitals at the door?

Nope. I propose leaving things as they are today, which relies on the honor system. (And as I've said, the fact that we have to go through this exercise at all is a little bit crazy, but hey, there are some who are calling for clarification, so here's the clarification I would propose...).

And the system we have today has led to exactly how many people being assaulted in bathrooms by predatory trans people, or people claiming to be trans?

[SillyAmerican]

Are you proposing to have somebody checking genitals at the door?

Nope. I propose leaving things as they are today, which relies on the honor system. (And as I've said, the fact that we have to go through this exercise at all is a little bit crazy, but hey, there are some who are calling for clarification, so here's the clarification I would propose...).

And the system we have today has led to exactly how many people being assaulted in bathrooms by predatory trans people, or people claiming to be trans?

Yes, so why is this being made such a big deal? I mean, why the need to clarify who should be using a bathroom designated for women? What is broken about the current system in which there's a clear definition of what we mean by "men", and a clear indication of where "men" go for bathroom and locker room facilities? I'm not the one trying to throw out the current system, and if today a man went into a bathroom designated for women and simply went into a stall and did his business, what would be the outrage? And what do you propose? Are you saying we need to start having "men", "women", and "other"? Or are you saying that all bathroom / locker room spaces need to be available to anyone, regardless of whether they are a man or a woman?

[SteveRogers]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

Nope. Read my comment again: I didn't say anything about one's birth certificate, I mentioned a drivers license (which I assume gets updated periodically). If you identify as a man, and have the equipment of a man, then use the bathroom designated as being for men. It's a fairly straight forward idea -- nothing "obtuse" about it.

And just to be clear, the folks pushing for clarification of this issue don't include me: I know which bathroom I should use. But yes, if we need to legislate such things (which apparently, and unfortunately, we do), I am advocating for a law that would require someone who is identified as a male on their government issued ID to use the bathroom designated for men, and vice versa.

But your whole concern is about preventing women from feeling uncomfortable. If someone who looks 100% like a man is in the women's restroom, and they have to be there because they don't have a penis, the women in the restroom will be uncomfortable. The women in the restroom will not know that that person doesn't have a penis. Therefore, your law produces the harm you seek to avoid.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Are you proposing to have somebody checking genitals at the door?

Nope. I propose leaving things as they are today, which relies on the honor system. (And as I've said, the fact that we have to go through this exercise at all is a little bit crazy, but hey, there are some who are calling for clarification, so here's the clarification I would propose...).

And the system we have today has led to exactly how many people being assaulted in bathrooms by predatory trans people, or people claiming to be trans?

Yes, so why is this being made such a big deal? I mean, why the need to clarify who should be using a bathroom designated for women? What is broken about the current system in which there's a clear definition of what we mean by "men", and a clear indication of where "men" go for bathroom and locker room facilities? I'm not the one trying to throw out the current system, and if today a man went into a bathroom designated for women and simply went into a stall and did his business, what would be the outrage? And what do you propose? Are you saying we need to start having "men", "women", and "other"? Or are you saying that all bathroom / locker room spaces need to be available to anyone, regardless of whether they are a man or a woman?

I honestly don't even know what you're talking about. I have proposed nothing of the sort. Trans people have CERTAINLY been using the bathrooms consistent with their gender identity, and there have been no problems. Trans people are much more likely to be the victims of assault than to assault others, so if anybody is uncomfortable, it should be them.

This is an issue that starts and ends with fearmongering. There is no problem to be solved.

[SillyAmerican]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

Nope. Read my comment again: I didn't say anything about one's birth certificate, I mentioned a drivers license (which I assume gets updated periodically). If you identify as a man, and have the equipment of a man, then use the bathroom designated as being for men. It's a fairly straight forward idea -- nothing "obtuse" about it.

And just to be clear, the folks pushing for clarification of this issue don't include me: I know which bathroom I should use. But yes, if we need to legislate such things (which apparently, and unfortunately, we do), I am advocating for a law that would require someone who is identified as a male on their government issued ID to use the bathroom designated for men, and vice versa.

But your whole concern is about preventing women from feeling uncomfortable. If someone who looks 100% like a man is in the women's restroom, and they have to be there because they don't have a penis, the women in the restroom will be uncomfortable. The women in the restroom will not know that that person doesn't have a penis. Therefore, your law produces the harm you seek to avoid.

Yes, but take the whole transgender question out of the equation, and you're still left with situations like the one you describe: a woman who looks like a man uses the women's restroom, and other women feel uncomfortable. Well, ok, that's an issue we live with today, but knowing that the person in question is in fact a woman should offer some reassurance to other women using that same facility. If you change that, and make it so a woman doesn't know whether the other people in the restroom are men or women, you're just opening yourself up to problems, and those are the problems we wish to avoid.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yes, so why is this being made such a big deal?

Lol.

[Slander and/or Libel]

If you have a male psychological pattern, but don't (yet?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the female bathroom? If you have a female psychological pattern, but (still?) have a penis, what's the harm in your having to use the male bathroom? Once surgeries are complete and your equipment has been brought into line with your psychology, there would appear to be no issue. And once again, if you're in transition and decide to use a stall in a bathroom of either sex, where's the harm? But locker room showers? Sorry, that crosses the line; you should have to wait 'til things are sorted out...

Why is the surgery the dividing line for you? Are you saying that a transgender person who has not yet gone through the surgery poses a real risk of creeping on/ making uncomfortable/ sexuall assaulting everyone if they're allowed into the "wrong" bathroom, but a transgender person who has gone through the surgery doesn't?

I'm saying that female humans, the people responsible for carrying pregnancies to term, those folks tend to not want male humans sharing their bathroom / locker room spaces. Whether the risk/discomfort is real or simply imagined, I know a fair number of women who simply don't like the idea. So there has to be a distinction/delineation of some sort, and I think it reasonable to make it along the lines of what genitalia one has. The drivers license or ID of a transgender person who was a man but is now a woman, will it list sex as male or female? My guess is they would be identified as "female", and that's good enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people, including many of those women who have issues with men in their restrooms).

I feel that you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You're advocating a law that will require people who identify as male, who appear to all the world as men, to use the women's restroom because that's what's on their birth certificate. Some of them have penises, some don't. The women you speak of, the women who you say are uncomfortable with men in their restrooms, will not know what genitals those men forced to share their restrooms have.

Nope. Read my comment again: I didn't say anything about one's birth certificate, I mentioned a drivers license (which I assume gets updated periodically). If you identify as a man, and have the equipment of a man, then use the bathroom designated as being for men. It's a fairly straight forward idea -- nothing "obtuse" about it.

And just to be clear, the folks pushing for clarification of this issue don't include me: I know which bathroom I should use. But yes, if we need to legislate such things (which apparently, and unfortunately, we do), I am advocating for a law that would require someone who is identified as a male on their government issued ID to use the bathroom designated for men, and vice versa.

But your whole concern is about preventing women from feeling uncomfortable. If someone who looks 100% like a man is in the women's restroom, and they have to be there because they don't have a penis, the women in the restroom will be uncomfortable. The women in the restroom will not know that that person doesn't have a penis. Therefore, your law produces the harm you seek to avoid.

Yes, but take the whole transgender question out of the equation, and you're still left with situations like the one you describe: a woman who looks like a man uses the women's restroom, and other women feel uncomfortable. Well, ok, that's an issue we live with today, but knowing that the person in question is in fact a woman should offer some reassurance to other women using that same facility. If you change that, and make it so a woman doesn't know whether the other people in the restroom are men or women, you're just opening yourself up to problems, and those are the problems we wish to avoid.

What problems? What problems are happening that need to be fixed here? Is "I don't like the looks of a person using the bathroom at the same time as me" really something that needs a legal remedy? It feels an awful lot like the problem is with the person going out of their way to judge the looks of the other people in the bathroom than it is with the person just trying to go about their business.

[SillyAmerican]

What problems? What problems are happening that need to be fixed here? Is "I don't like the looks of a person using the bathroom at the same time as me" really something that needs a legal remedy? It feels an awful lot like the problem is with the person going out of their way to judge the looks of the other people in the bathroom than it is with the person just trying to go about their business.

See my original post in this thread for a concrete problem scenario. You don't understand why we have separate bathrooms today for men and women? You tell me: what issues are we trying to avoid by having men and women in separate facilities? I find it disingenuous to say that you have no idea what problems we might be working to avoid. And again, this has nothing to do with transgenders, and everything to do with protecting, and being sensitive to the privacy concerns of, women.