Opinion of Bernie's Income Tax Plan?

[RFayette]

There's this weird misconception (especially amongst leftist) that a vast majority of rich people inherited their wealth and grew up in rich families.

That's far from the truth. 70% of billionaires didn't inherit anything and a majority of the Forbes 400 didn't come from rich families.

This discussion is pretty tangential to the "what marginal income tax rates are optimal" question, but this is... not even close to true:

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Fair enough, but tax increases on billionaires is far from what we're talking about.  If we're just talking about tax increases on those at that level, I'm OK with that.  What we were talking about is $10K+ increases in total tax bills for people just breaking the six figures.  That seems to be a different story entirely.

I don't think that talking about billionaires tells us much about other people's economic experiences, either, which is one reason why I dismissed the claim as not just false, but irrelevant. (Moreover, it's not as if the fact that a fortune is "self-made" is in itself a reason to favor lower tax rates.) But there's not much reason to believe that you can sustain the kind of programs that Sanders, other Democrats, and even Republicans usually campaign on, and fund them with through income and payroll taxes, without raising those taxes on Americans earning $100k - $200k per year. In the long run, those of us who support those programs need to make that the case that they are worthwhile rather than deluding people into thinking that only people with higher incomes will need to pay more.

Is this really the case though?  While I'm not a huge fan of it, just raising taxes on $250K+ seems a lot easier to justify, and it seems like if you raise the marginal tax rate for 250K+ to 45%, up the short-term capital gains tax rate, and lift the payroll tax cap, you'd have enough to cover college subsidies, some child care coverage, etc.  I'm not saying I support those things, but it seems like a better approach than socking it to upper-middle-income professionals.

[Smash255]

Let's forget about wealthier taxpayers. The main thing I don't like about Bernie's tax plan is that he wants to substantially raise taxes on the middle class. That's not a good idea and it will severely hurt him in the GE if he were to win the nomination.

Bernie's tax pllan is a 2.2% increase in taxes on the middle class, plus for those with employer based health coverage, there health insurance premium is no longer tax deductible (since it doesn't exist anymore), so there overall taxable income will be a bit higher.  The flip side is there is no more health insurance Premium.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

My problem with Bernie's tax plan is that, like the spending plan, I don't trust him and his "experts" to actually get this sh_t right and will just end up creating a needlessly expensive tranche of new programs that everyone will get pissed off at and then elect Republicans who cut it all.

I don't necessarily mind higher income taxes on the highest earners (imo the 2013 tax hikes weren't enough), or even the elimination of some credits that reduce taxable income in the first place for lower brackets, but an additional payroll tax to pay for Medicare for all (something I don't think is necessary to provide universal healthcare in the first place) is unnecessary.


Like the rest of his proposals for other taxes and spending, his proposals are just what clueless liberals masturbate to thinking northern Europe is like, not how it actually is. He promises all the goody-goodies of Europe without acknowledging the very real downsides of some of these programs and systems.

[RaphaelDLG]

My problem with Bernie's tax plan is that, like the spending plan, I don't trust him and his "experts" to actually get this sh_t right and will just end up creating a needlessly expensive tranche of new programs that everyone will get pissed off at and then elect Republicans who cut it all.

I don't necessarily mind higher income taxes on the highest earners (imo the 2013 tax hikes weren't enough), or even the elimination of some credits that reduce taxable income in the first place for lower brackets, but an additional payroll tax to pay for Medicare for all (something I don't think is necessary to provide universal healthcare in the first place) is unnecessary.


Like the rest of his proposals for other taxes and spending, his proposals are just what clueless liberals masturbate to thinking northern Europe is like, not how it actually is. He promises all the goody-goodies of Europe without acknowledging the very real downsides of some of these programs and systems.

Like?

[IceSpear]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

So it's OK to totally lie about Bernie's tax plan? Shame on you.

[IceSpear]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

So it's OK to totally lie about Bernie's tax plan? Shame on you.

Politics isn't fair. If you're explaining, you're losing. The perception of this tax plan would even make Trump look palatable to millions of greedy Americans.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

So it's OK to totally lie about Bernie's tax plan? Shame on you.

Politics isn't fair. If you're explaining, you're losing. The perception of this tax plan would even make Trump look palatable to millions of greedy Americans.

The thing is a total pants on fire lie, there's no explaining needed.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Taxing high incomes more is everything I hate about the left - they want to give it all to the illegals, to the Muslims, and to successful people they throw up a big middle finger and say, we want to give it to losers.

(And my point about Muslims was just that liberals care about not offending Muslim sympathies - refusing to even call it radical Islamic terrorism - yet they certainly don't care about outright stealing hordes of money from successful people for no other reason than "fairness.")

You do realize - given your demographic profile and the, uh, somewhat fragile state of mind demonstrated by your posting history -  that you represent more of a "terror" threat than all but an almost negligibly small share of American Muslims?

I mean, I enjoy trolling message boards (yes, even the fundie segment had a good bit of trolling in it), but it's not like I say a word of this stuff outside of it, so whatever.  That's part of my shtick is to go a bit overboard, I'll admit  My main point was that I oppose raising taxes on 6-figure incomes to redistribute it more to those in lower rungs and that I do favor encouraging success.

First, let's stop equating wealth with success.

Second, "encouraging success," if we are defining success your way, requires giving people the tools they need to succeed. Most of those tools come in the form of policies and programs that I expect you would reject as "special treatment." These programs require funding.

I have no issue with job-training programs, subsidized tuition, etc.  All I'm saying is that the tax code to fund such programs should be relatively flat, except perhaps with some progressivism once we get to 1 million dollar plus incomes.

Raising the revenues necessary to fund the programs you suggest requires the tax brackets and tax rates to at least remain similar to what they are now. Flattening everything would mean putting the burden on people who are less able to afford it, which would basically neutralize the effects of the training programs and tuition subsidies in the first place.

I suppose only applying a flat rate above a certain "subsistence" income of say, 20-30,000 dollars might be the solution to that.  I suppose the problem then would be increased taxes on the middle class; in that case, some pretty progressive taxation on capital gains and 10 million+ in income could be utilized.  Of course, spending could also be cut elsewhere in the budget to pay for more job-training and subsidized tuition; I'd probably look to entitlement reform to help recoup some costs.

So the solution involves a poor black single mother having to choose between job training for her kid or healthcare under Medicaid? Christ.

[Young Conservative]

Absolutely terrible

[7,052,770]

So how does Bernie's tax structure change when his Medicaid For All plan doesn't pass? Still pretty big, since he can't weave in all of the savings we'll see from that personally, or that our employers will supposedly pass on to us?

[catographer]

Watching a bit of a 1992 general election debate between Clinton, Bush and Perot reminded me why Democrats have won 4 of the 6 elections since 1992 and why they lost 5 of the 6 before '92. Clinton spoke about a pro-middle class economic plan that lay the burden on the wealthy, promising no pain and all gain for the middle class. That is the same theme I've seen time and time again from the Democratic establishment; it reminds me a lot of Obama's campaign message in 2012, that the rich need to pay their fair share (Clinton 1992's exact words). Romney at the time criticized "trickle-down gov't" and bemoaned that the government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does. Those are the exact words of Bush in 1992. Bernie Sanders would change the Democratic message to be pain and gain for the middle class. That message lost Democrats many elections, and the party can't afford to lose this one against Cruz or Trump.

[Camaro33]

Both. Low and middle incomes need a tax reduction. Wealthy should pay a little more.

But that alone won't solve fiscal problems. In some areas, spending cuts are necessary.

+1 for bipartisan agreement

[RightBehind]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

Not a chance would he get slaughtered.

[RightBehind]

Watching a bit of a 1992 general election debate between Clinton, Bush and Perot reminded me why Democrats have won 4 of the 6 elections since 1992 and why they lost 5 of the 6 before '92. Clinton spoke about a pro-middle class economic plan that lay the burden on the wealthy, promising no pain and all gain for the middle class. That is the same theme I've seen time and time again from the Democratic establishment; it reminds me a lot of Obama's campaign message in 2012, that the rich need to pay their fair share (Clinton 1992's exact words). Romney at the time criticized "trickle-down gov't" and bemoaned that the government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does. Those are the exact words of Bush in 1992. Bernie Sanders would change the Democratic message to be pain and gain for the middle class. That message lost Democrats many elections, and the party can't afford to lose this one against Cruz or Trump.

Well, the harsh reality is you may have to give a little to get a little. Higher taxes, maybe, but at least you get something for it.

[Higgs]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

Not a chance would he get slaughtered.

Yes, he would. Sorry, but you're a delusional hack.

[The Last Northerner]

lol at calling someone an 'aspie' and then going on a personal rant.

[Хahar 🤔]

Atlas Forum poster RFayette displayes an unstable worldview–demonstrated by regular, extreme changes in belief–and a strong proclivity toward hateful emotions and rhetoric in all incarnations.

Yeah, that's the sort of person who joins Daesh. Certainly he's by far the likeliest poster on this site to do that.

[BlueSwan]

Reason No 1 why Republicans will eviscerate him if he somehow ends as the Democratic candidate.

Yes!

[RFayette]

I regret my past posts in this thread.  I had been overtaken by anger and said things I regret.  I don't blame people for their condition.  I was just mad about the prospect of paying a lot more in taxes, which went too far.   My bad.  Also, I would never say any such thing IRL, which is a reAson I shouldn't say it online.

[ElectionsGuy]

Can't think of something much worse. Even if those statistics are misleading, its certain that the poorest will be paying more in taxes, and that itself is a giant hypocrisy of Sanders' class warfare campaign.

[Oak Hills]

Can't think of something much worse. Even if those statistics are misleading, its certain that the poorest will be paying more in taxes, and that itself is a giant hypocrisy of Sanders' class warfare campaign.

Yeah, that's my biggest problem with it. I don't really mind tax hikes on the middle class or the rich so much.

[RightBehind]

Holy sh**t, Bernie would get mercilessly slaughtered in the general. No wonder why the Republicans have been playing pattycake with him for the past year.

And sorry guys, but if you need the typical voter to read a 10 paragraph debunking or to visit "bernietax.com", you've already lost.

Not a chance would he get slaughtered.

Yes, he would. Sorry, but you're a delusional hack.

Not a chance he'd get slaughtered at all. If anything, he'd do the slaughtering.

[RightBehind]

Reason No 1 why Republicans will eviscerate him if he somehow ends as the Democratic candidate.

Yes!

Who is supposed to eviscerate him? Donald and Ted? Not a chance.

[Frodo]

I already pay thousands of dollars with current rates -there is no ing way I would ever vote for a candidate with this tax plan that would make me pay thousands of dollars more, though I can easily understand why young people would be attracted to it, since they don't yet have full-time jobs that would require them to pay such high rates, so it isn't real to them.