charlie hebdo continues to be pure garbage, now without the "muh satire" charade

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

[ingemann]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

[Derpist]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

I have no interested in preserving an "authentically secular culture". I have no personal qualms with Islam or even Political Islam/Islamism, even if it is clearly not my religion/ideology. I only have personal qualms with violence and a media that constantly tries to cover up the fact that poorly integrated Muslims, brought over by the millions due to an unholy alliance of PC leftists and corporations, disproportionately engage in such violence (and not just terrorism, but really most crime).

I'm not really what there is to argue. One side thinks that anyone who points that out is engaging in hate speech, racism, Nazism, etc. and should be arrested.

We could have a discussion on what is the best to deal with this problem and I don't know if we would disagree that strongly. But that is not where the current political debate is at.

[Antonio the Sixth]

(and not just terrorism, but really most crime)

There's no actual evidence of this AFAIK.

[Derpist]

(and not just terrorism, but really most crime)

There's no actual evidence of this AFAIK.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11352268/What-is-going-wrong-in-Frances-prisons.html

And let's not even get to Sweden...

[Antonio the Sixth]

There's still no way to know if that holds when you control for socioeconomic background and a whole slew of demographic variables.

[Famous Mortimer]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

There is no way to build a secular culture without calling out people who oppose secularism. People who are not secular are not scapegoats in this situation. "Scapegoat" implies they are not really to blame. People who are not secular are indeed the ones to blame for their own not being secular.

[Derpist]

There's still no way to know if that holds when you control for socioeconomic background and a whole slew of demographic variables.

I'm not saying that "being Muslim makes you commit crime!"

What I'm saying is that the phenomenon that we see, the actual Muslim immigrants that these countries get, commit high levels of crime such as murder, theft, rape, and terrorism. The failure of Western Europe to integrate them is likely an economic and social and cultural problem.

Until those problems are addressed, inviting this mass movement of people from the Muslim world is disastrous.

Anyone who agrees with either of those two points is branded as a nazi racist whatever by the mainstream media and political establishment. And that is where the debate is: whether you think Western Europe has a Muslim immigrant problem - or whether you think anyone who says so is a Nazi engaging in hate speech.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

There is no way to build a secular culture without calling out people who oppose secularism. People who are not secular are not scapegoats in this situation. "Scapegoat" implies they are not really to blame. People who are not secular are indeed the ones to blame for their own not being secular.

A secular culture does not require everyone in society to be secular. By that standard, early 20th century France certainly wouldn't have been called "secular". In fact, a secular society could theoretically function even if everyone in it was deeply religious. The idea that Muslims are threatening it simply by practicing their faith in their personal lives is utterly ludicrous.


Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

[Derpist]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

They don't all agree. They actively try to censor evidence for this. Sweden literally stopped collecting data on the background of rapists because they were turning out to be mostly Muslim.

I'm also skeptical those are the only reasons. First, there's no correlation between integration and the strength of the welfare state (Swedish Muslims are even more poorly integrated than British Muslims who are more poorly integrated than American Muslims). Even stuff like segregation/discrimination doesn't convince me - because unlike America (where 1st generation immigrants are mostly fine and 2nd generation immigrants are the real problems), we see crime, sexual assault, and crap as soon as they step off the refugee trains.

You'd think America would be actually be worse at integrating Muslims (it's not great either, but it's better than Sweden) - but I think what someone said in an earlier thread was illustrative: America just takes fewer Muslims and takes mostly better-educated Muslims. A lot of these problems seem like the inevitable outcome of taking millions of (mostly lower-class) Muslims - too many too fast.

And the primary political debate is whether people can say this or whether people need to harassed as Nazis.

[dead0man]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

[Famous Mortimer]

Furthermore, if retrenchment of the welfare state is really one of the reasons, you need to stop immigration in order to fix that. How are you going to add a million, disproportionately unemployed, disproportionately fertile people every year AND afford to increase benefits for everyone?

[warandwar]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

[Famous Mortimer]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

You know what I mean.

[warandwar]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

You know what I mean.

they ovulate quicker?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off. There are actual human beings involved, and closing our borders, aside from just being unworkable, would consequences just as awful as botched integration policies.

[Derpist]

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off.

I'm pretty sure it is.

[dead0man]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off. There are actual human beings involved, and closing our borders, aside from just being unworkable, would consequences just as awful as botched integration policies.

Enjoy the ride then.  Or are you planning on staying here now that you've seen how much better it is

[Famous Mortimer]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

You know what I mean.

they ovulate quicker?

If you really don't know what I mean, you are too dumb to be helped. Obviously you must know what I mean though. I don't know what you think your side gains from this feigned ignorance.

[Famous Mortimer]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off. There are actual human beings involved, and closing our borders, aside from just being unworkable, would consequences just as awful as botched integration policies.

The left's solution to poor integration: Continue to allow it to happen but wring your hands about how bad White people are while you do it.

[dead0man]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

You know what I mean.

they ovulate quicker?

If you really don't know what I mean, you are too dumb to be helped. Obviously you must know what I mean though. I don't know what you think your side gains from this feigned ignorance.

It's part of the playbook.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

You know what I mean.

they ovulate quicker?

If you really don't know what I mean, you are too dumb to be helped. Obviously you must know what I mean though. I don't know what you think your side gains from this feigned ignorance.

no, do tell. i thought your side was supposed to be straightforward and hate obfuscating language?

[Famous Mortimer]

disproportionately fertile people

wut

You know what I mean.

they ovulate quicker?

If you really don't know what I mean, you are too dumb to be helped. Obviously you must know what I mean though. I don't know what you think your side gains from this feigned ignorance.

no, do tell. i thought your side was supposed to be straightforward and hate obfuscating language?

Immigrants, on average, have many more children than the native population of Europe. I worded it poorly but my point was clear. You knew that. Now a question for you. What exactly do you think you gained by pretending to be confused?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off. There are actual human beings involved, and closing our borders, aside from just being unworkable, would consequences just as awful as botched integration policies.

Enjoy the ride then.  Or are you planning on staying here now that you've seen how much better it is

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.