NDP Leadership Convention 2017

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Angus will announce soon.

Our version of a Bernie candidate.  Even though he's been there for a long time, he still comes off as anti-establishment left (being a former member of a punk band).  Even in the sense that the one issue where he may not have been as 'progressive' is on gun control (similar to Sanders).  Looking forward to the race!

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I saw youtube clip of Charlie Angus speaking French and it was painful...his accent was so awful that listening to him was like listening to fingernails scratching a blackboard...sorry but this will not cut it. Its a pity because he has a lot to offer otherwise.

Charlie Angus = GONG

He represents a Francophone riding in Ontario, and they didn't seem to have an issue with it.

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I saw youtube clip of Charlie Angus speaking French and it was painful...his accent was so awful that listening to him was like listening to fingernails scratching a blackboard...sorry but this will not cut it. Its a pity because he has a lot to offer otherwise.

Charlie Angus = GONG

He represents a Francophone riding in Ontario, and they didn't seem to have an issue with it.

I mean, if you can call a 30% French riding "Francophone".

It's actually about 44% Francophone, and I was confusing it with the provincial Timmins - James Bay, which includes Kap and Hearst.  That riding is over 50% francophone.

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I saw youtube clip of Charlie Angus speaking French and it was painful...his accent was so awful that listening to him was like listening to fingernails scratching a blackboard...sorry but this will not cut it. Its a pity because he has a lot to offer otherwise.

Charlie Angus = GONG

He represents a Francophone riding in Ontario, and they didn't seem to have an issue with it.

I mean, if you can call a 30% French riding "Francophone".

It's actually about 44% Francophone, and I was confusing it with the provincial Timmins - James Bay, which includes Kap and Hearst.  That riding is over 50% francophone.

Where are you getting that information?

The riding is actually 32% French (30% was a back of the envelope calculation) if you do the math: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=FED2013&Code1=35107&Geo2=PR&Code2=01&Data=Count&SearchText=Timmins&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1

If you're looking at knowledge of official languages, French is at about 44%.  When you look at language most often spoken at home, and/or mother tongue, the number goes down to 30%.

It should also be noted that because of the huge land mass, the way that the boundaries were cut, and the Aboriginal populations, the number looks smaller than it should be.  Could you imagine telling someone in Val D'or (Quebec) that their riding is only 60% Francophone?  They feel much more Francophone than the numbers indicate.

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I saw youtube clip of Charlie Angus speaking French and it was painful...his accent was so awful that listening to him was like listening to fingernails scratching a blackboard...sorry but this will not cut it. Its a pity because he has a lot to offer otherwise.

Charlie Angus = GONG

He represents a Francophone riding in Ontario, and they didn't seem to have an issue with it.

I mean, if you can call a 30% French riding "Francophone".

It's actually about 44% Francophone, and I was confusing it with the provincial Timmins - James Bay, which includes Kap and Hearst.  That riding is over 50% francophone.

Where are you getting that information?

The riding is actually 32% French (30% was a back of the envelope calculation) if you do the math: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=FED2013&Code1=35107&Geo2=PR&Code2=01&Data=Count&SearchText=Timmins&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1

If you're looking at knowledge of official languages, French is at about 44%.  When you look at language most often spoken at home, and/or mother tongue, the number goes down to 30%.

It should also be noted that because of the huge land mass, the way that the boundaries were cut, and the Aboriginal populations, the number looks smaller than it should be.  Could you imagine telling someone in Val D'or (Quebec) that their riding is only 60% Francophone?  They feel much more Francophone than the numbers indicate.

If someone wants to try, I'm avaliable. Well, as the name of the riding indicates, it's a mix of various areas, which consider each other separate (and have quite different realities, honestly).

Nonetheless, the population centres in the ridings are quite more Francophone than the riding demographics would have you believe.

There are more Christians than Jews in Thornhill, yet people call it a Jewish riding. 

The point is, you can still label a riding, or city, by a name that identifies a large group of its people (even if they fall below 50% in the area, or is not the largest group) if it has a significant population. 
Timmins-James Bay is a Francophone riding in Ontario.

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I saw youtube clip of Charlie Angus speaking French and it was painful...his accent was so awful that listening to him was like listening to fingernails scratching a blackboard...sorry but this will not cut it. Its a pity because he has a lot to offer otherwise.

Charlie Angus = GONG

He represents a Francophone riding in Ontario, and they didn't seem to have an issue with it.

I mean, if you can call a 30% French riding "Francophone".

It's actually about 44% Francophone, and I was confusing it with the provincial Timmins - James Bay, which includes Kap and Hearst.  That riding is over 50% francophone.

Where are you getting that information?

The riding is actually 32% French (30% was a back of the envelope calculation) if you do the math: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=FED2013&Code1=35107&Geo2=PR&Code2=01&Data=Count&SearchText=Timmins&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1

If you're looking at knowledge of official languages, French is at about 44%.  When you look at language most often spoken at home, and/or mother tongue, the number goes down to 30%.

It should also be noted that because of the huge land mass, the way that the boundaries were cut, and the Aboriginal populations, the number looks smaller than it should be.  Could you imagine telling someone in Val D'or (Quebec) that their riding is only 60% Francophone?  They feel much more Francophone than the numbers indicate.

If someone wants to try, I'm avaliable. Well, as the name of the riding indicates, it's a mix of various areas, which consider each other separate (and have quite different realities, honestly).

Nonetheless, the population centres in the ridings are quite more Francophone than the riding demographics would have you believe.

There are more Christians than Jews in Thornhill, yet people call it a Jewish riding. 

The point is, you can still label a riding, or city, by a name that identifies a large group of its people (even if they fall below 50% in the area, or is not the largest group) if it has a significant population. 
Timmins-James Bay is a Francophone riding in Ontario.

Thornhill's an interesting case, because Jews make up a plurality (larger than any Christian denomination). And in when looking an Canadian religion demos, we usually don't lump all Christians together as one cohesive group.

Speaking for myself, as a non-Christian, I do group them together.  I think it's more people within Christianity who don't like to group themselves with other denominations. 

We say particular region's or ridings have large Indigenous (or Aboriginal) populations, we don't further classify.  But within the Indigenous community, they seem to further classify the different Aboriginal groups / languages.

Perhaps it appears that we don't group Christians as a cohesive group because they are the majority group.  It's kind of coming from a privileged stance to stay, in Christianity, we don't identify as a cohesive group.  We don't because you are the majority, and that's the way you see it.

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Just posted this in the CPC leadership thread...

Its worth noting that there is a four month lag between when the Conservatives pick their leader and when the NDP pick theirs. Both parties have prospective candidates for the leadership with varying degrees of bilingual ability.

Scenario A: Let's say the Tories pick a unilingual anglo as leader such as O'Leary or Leitch or Raitt...or one of the others who speaks some French but its very laboured. Does that cause the NDP to take the attitude of "well if the Tories can have a leader who speaks no French, maybe we can also get away with a leader whose French is not that good (i.e. Angus)? OR does the NDP take the attitude of "by picking a leader who speaks no French, the Tories are essentially vacating Quebec and that gives the NDP the chance to be the only viable alternative to Trudeau in 2019 - so maybe we should pick someone like Guy Caron as leader who is a francophone Quebecer"

Scenario B: What if the Tories pick a Quebecer such as Bernier (or Blaney) as leader? Does the NDP then figure "we can't be the only party without a leader who speaks perfect French o we better go for Guy Caron" OR does the NDP take the more "realpolitik" view that both the Liberals and the Tories are led by Quebecers and on top of that the new Tory leader speaks English with a heavy French accent and is likely to be a hard sell in English Canada. maybe the NDP can get do well in the rest of Canada by being the only party led by an anglophone who is not from Quebec and we need to bait and switch as far as Quebec is concerned?

If the Anglophone is someone like Angus, I could still see much of Quebec going for him.  Many parts of Quebec are much more populist/labour/socialist left than the rest of the country, as opposed to politically correct/latte sipping/elite left(on paper only) Liberals in Downtown Toronto.
Angus comes from rural Northern Ontario.  He can surely attract other rural working class areas while maintaining the true social-democratic left in the urban areas.  If Megan Leslie is still saying no, I really do think Angus is the next best choice to grow the party.

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I actually think Jagmeet Singh is the man of the future for the NDP and his French is better than Angus 's

Not sure I agree about that.  What are you going by?  Angus' French is just a bit below where Layton's was.  Choppy but still speaks in terms of Canadian French and slang ("Chui" for Je Suis, "Je vo po" instead of "Je ne vais pas") that Quebeckers identify with.  Singh's French is hyper-formal and seems unnatural, IMO.

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From what little I know, I think Julian or Jagmeet Singh would be good NDP leaders. Singh more for a Trudeau-esque vibe.

He does.  Although, his ability to help deliver other seats hasn't been proven yet.  The last provincial election, he spent time canvassing with/for other NDP candidates in Peel, and none got elected, although the vote share did go up.

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Not quite sure.

In terms of Angus, there are several stance I think he's taken that may hurt him.  In the Taxi Vs Uber debate, he was quite vocal about being with Taxi drivers and against Uber.  This is not how you attract young people.  If he wants to be Canada's Bernie, he's not going to win over the millennial with those kinds of positions.

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I wish Peggy Nash or Megan Leslie would enter.  Leslie would be my top choice.  Nash was a former labour organizer, so she would be good at bringing the urban Toronto latte sippers together with the Hamilton blue collar pro-union workers.

I'm not a big fan of Niki Ashton's style.  She's very much, in my view, too hard-line partisan.  The vocabulary she used with the "elbow-gate" was a turn off to most Canadians.  I don't think this hyper-sensationalism/hyper-reactions look good, and that is what I get from her.  I want someone who is willing to work with others, and take a stand based on issues not on politics.

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I find it interesting that the NDP might be optimistic enough to think Canadians will elect a brown guy Prime Minister.

Are we not supposed to say that? I have no faith in our people whatsoever.

The locals from my native Timmins-James Bay wouldn't be so hot on him, and it's an NDP stronghold.

What makes you say this?  I also grew up in Timmins, and tend to disagree with you.  Of course, Angus would probably be their first choice because he is the local MP, but TJ-B is very much an NDP stronghold, like you mentioned.  Singh is very pro union, and supports many of the "left-populist" issues that Northern Ontario NDP supports agree with.

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Northern Ontario is much more like Quebec in that they have a do whatever you want / be who you are libertarian attitude towards things like sexuality/race, and a lot of other things. They think everyone should be treated equally (read "same"), which may not always be equitable.  I do think Singh's politics align much more with the North than Angus' do.  It is not uncommon to hear people in Timmins say they feel like they don't get much representation because Angus is always worrying about the "natives" (a word still used by Indigenous and white/non indigenous in the north).  On the surface is sounds racist, but it is much more a reflection of the problem with creating these huge ridings, and grouping urban cities with Aboriginal communities.

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Angus posted something interesting on his FB:

"The Ottawa/Toronto media have declared the NDP race to be about becoming more stylish. C'mon folks time to pick up your game. The great unwashed can definitely do better. I'm the worst offender having been called over the last few days frumpy, dowdy, old and chippy. I promise that next time I stop at a roadside for a photo I will wear a jaunty accessory, like maybe my Roughriders ball cap."

I have found it to be borderline offensive.  It attacks the media outlets rather than Singh himself, but the line about the "jaunty accessory" was a low blow.  The word "jaunty" to me applies to someone who exudes confidence, and saying that toward a turban wearing visible minority member, comes off as cowardly. 

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Watched some of the Sudbury debate today. I'm very impressed with Singh's French.  I take back what I said previously.  He is stronger than Angus with his French, IMO.

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More from Charlie Angus' Facebook.  What is problematic is that he isn't speaking up against what is being said by his supporters.  Difficult stuff to read.

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More from Charlie Angus' Facebook.  What is problematic is that he isn't speaking up against what is being said by his supporters.  Difficult stuff to read.

Are there more examples of this?

Yes.

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Angus is definitely NOT the Bernie Sanders candidate, since he supports pipelines, and is against trying to provide universal access to post-secondary education for free.  He's turning into the centre-right candidate (at least for the NDP).

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Angus is not against free post secondary education. He simply challenged those proposing it to present a real plan to implement it including how it would funded and how to deal with the provinces which have 100% jurisdiction over education. These are perfectly valid points and I hope people who want free post secondary plan to address these issues.

He isn't supporting it or making it known he supports it, so he must is against it.

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Angus is not against free post secondary education. He simply challenged those proposing it to present a real plan to implement it including how it would funded and how to deal with the provinces which have 100% jurisdiction over education. These are perfectly valid points and I hope people who want free post secondary plan to address these issues.

He isn't supporting it or making it known he supports it, so he must is against it.

He's said that he supports it, dude.

Right, but he's critiquing others by saying they don't have a plan to pay for it.  Well, he doesn't either, so if he does support it, they are all at the same point/position, so why make the criticism?

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Mainstreet Research
http://ipolitics.ca/2017/07/07/charlie-angus-leads-ndp-leadership-field-mainstreet-research-poll/ (paywalled, unfortunately)

Decided respondents:

Angus 35.2%
Ashton 31.9%
Julian 11.8%
Singh 11.7%
Caron 9.5%

This makes me a little nervous.
Ashton as leader would make me vote Green.  She's too reactionary, hyper-sensational for me.

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If there is a perception (real or not) that Singh did not win because of his turban/religion, you can say goodbye to those suburban Toronto/Vancouver seats the NDP was eyeing.  It also wouldn't sit well with the urban (DT Van/TOR) Liberal yuppie types who tend to switch between NDP/Liberal.

I've finally decided to personally support Singh over Angus.  I grew up in Timmins, so this may be surprising, but I think Singh's policies align more with mine - a mix of socialist/libertarian/populist left.  I also like how he has been running a pretty positive campaign.  While Angus smears and yells "You're just like Liberals!!  You are a conservative" or uses the left-right spectrum to convince others how terrible someone is, most Canadians don't see politics that way (and by the way, most Canadians voted for one of those two parties for most of their lives, don't you want them to consider you?).  Angus doesn't seem to be open to new ideas.  Jagmeet talks about some kind of OAS reform, one that would take money from people earning Millions+ and give it to low income canadians, and Angus labels him immature, or a conservative.  Universality, while essential for certain programs (like Healthcare, Pharmacare, Tuition), would not have the same effect for OAS (essentially a source of Income).  Someone earning millions of dollars a year would probably not notice any effect if their OAS went down, and it's not like some sort of private OAS could pop up (like would happen with Healthcare or pharmacare).  Angus doesn't even want to talk about it, and that upsets me.  He is right and anyone who disagrees with him is labelled "far right".  No, Angus.  You are not our Bernie candidate.

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Timmins has always been a weak spot within the Timmins-James Bay riding for the NDP.  I believe the Liberals actually won in the city limits of Timmins in 20165.  It is similar to Sudbury, the reason it appears to be a stronghold for the NDP is because of the Northern Part of the riding.

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I've been very interesting watching where the ONDP caucus is putting their support.  It seems now that Bisson, Gélinas, and Vanthof are the only three supporting Angus, DiNovo to Ashton, Tabuns supports Caron, while the rest have gone with Singh.  Bisson and Vanthof are understandable, as their provincial ridings fall in parts of Angus' federal riding.  Gélinas surprised me a little bit, opting to go with basically unilingual Angus over her bilingual colleague, Singh.  Angus said in one of the debates (I believe the Sudbury one) that the NDP would win all of Northern Ontario if he is elected leader, yet he wasn't able to convince prominent Northern Ontario NDP members like Michael Mantha, Howard Hampton, and Shelley Martel, who have all gone elsewhere. 

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With his L'Etranger and Grievous Angels background, "bland" isn't exactly a fitting descriptor for Angus, nor is the presumption that he wouldn't excite younger voters.  Maybe a different *kind* of younger, hipper demo than Singh, though, if not without overlap...

'Hip' for when he was young doesn't necessarily mean 'hip' today.  What's "hip" today is what Singh is all about, inclusiveness, various ethnic backgrounds coming together, different religions, all getting along.  I'm curious what you mean by "different kind" of "hipper demo"?  To me it sounds a lot like you mean a white voter? Angus' "hipper demo" is predominantly white older folk who think what it means to be "hip" is the same as it was 25 years ago, then sure.  It's not 1985 where kids are into the Clash, and the Sex Pistols, and the punk-rock scene.