Is American "movement liberalism" the most anti-"culture" ideology?
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  Is American "movement liberalism" the most anti-"culture" ideology?
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Question: Is American "movement liberalism" the most anti-"culture" ideology?
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Author Topic: Is American "movement liberalism" the most anti-"culture" ideology?  (Read 1955 times)
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BRTD
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« on: April 17, 2016, 11:07:03 PM »
« edited: April 17, 2016, 11:10:22 PM by White Light »

Something that came to me in a discussion on AAD. But most American "movement liberals" do not give a f[inks] if any practice or element of one's identity is heavily tied to their culture or heritage if it has any conflict with liberal values. Anything that contradicts liberalism in any way must be destroyed. Notice how they don't care in the slightest about Columbus Day's importance to the Italian-American community, it must be abolished for not representing liberal values. They oppose any attempts to block Mexicans and Muslims from immigrating but once they do they want them to be completely assimilated.

Also as I noted, the strongholds of American "movement liberalism" tend to be extremely assimilated whitebread, generic white culture places. San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Denver, Twin Cities, Madison, Austin are all notable for not having any real "white ethnic" neighborhoods, almost all the whites there are very assimilated whitebread types. Meanwhile it's worth noting that ethnic enclaves in major cities often do in fact vote Republican. For example Mt. Greenwood in Chicago is one of the few Republican parts of the city, all the Italians in Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn, Northeast Philly, South Boston (not as Republican in presidential elections generally, but if there's a swing toward Republicans it's one of the first places to flip.) Meanwhile the white liberal parts of those cities are all very assimilated and "non-ethnic", just like the whites in the cities mentioned previously.

Think of a stereotypical Bernie Sanders supporter. Does that seem like someone who'd frequently celebrate their ethnic traditions and heritage?
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Goldwater
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 11:12:24 PM »

Something that came to me in a discussion on AAD. But most American "movement liberals" do not give a f[inks] if any practice or element of one's identity is heavily tied to their culture or heritage if it has any conflict with liberal values. Anything that contradicts liberalism in any way must be destroyed. Notice how they don't care in the slightest about Columbus Day's importance to the Italian-American community, it must be abolished for not representing liberal values. They oppose any attempts to block Mexicans and Muslims from immigrating but once they do they want them to be completely assimilated.

Dude, tone it down a notch.
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jfern
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 11:14:56 PM »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.
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BRTD
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 11:18:35 PM »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.

1-I'm only talking about the whites in San Francisco.
2-San Francisco doesn't today (I suppose it did in Dan White's time) have any real "ethnic" white neighborhoods. The white areas are all very integrated and full of whites from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The Castro is actually a perfect example of this since it's a gay neighborhood, not one with any type of ethnic flavor.
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Cathcon
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 11:24:59 PM »

Define "movement liberalism".
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jfern
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 11:26:17 PM »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.

1-I'm only talking about the whites in San Francisco.
2-San Francisco doesn't today (I suppose it did in Dan White's time) have any real "ethnic" white neighborhoods. The white areas are all very integrated and full of whites from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The Castro is actually a perfect example of this since it's a gay neighborhood, not one with any type of ethnic flavor.

I'm sure these people totally agree with you.
http://www.russiancentersf.com/
http://www.irishcentersf.org/
https://www.jccsf.org/
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BRTD
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 11:26:54 PM »


People on DU and DailyKos. 2004 Howard Dean supporters. 2006 anti-war netroots types who led the campaign to primary Joe Lieberman. White Obama supporters in 2008. Your average Bernie Sanders supporter.
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BRTD
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 11:28:41 PM »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.

1-I'm only talking about the whites in San Francisco.
2-San Francisco doesn't today (I suppose it did in Dan White's time) have any real "ethnic" white neighborhoods. The white areas are all very integrated and full of whites from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The Castro is actually a perfect example of this since it's a gay neighborhood, not one with any type of ethnic flavor.

I'm sure these people totally agree with you.
http://www.russiancentersf.com/
http://www.irishcentersf.org/
https://www.jccsf.org/

Those aren't entire NEIGHBORHOODS.
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jfern
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 11:31:34 PM »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.

1-I'm only talking about the whites in San Francisco.
2-San Francisco doesn't today (I suppose it did in Dan White's time) have any real "ethnic" white neighborhoods. The white areas are all very integrated and full of whites from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The Castro is actually a perfect example of this since it's a gay neighborhood, not one with any type of ethnic flavor.

I'm sure these people totally agree with you.
http://www.russiancentersf.com/
http://www.irishcentersf.org/
https://www.jccsf.org/

Those aren't entire NEIGHBORHOODS.

Well, whites tend to be separated more on income than "ethnicity" in the western US, but I'm not sure what your point is. The idea that San Francisco is some particularly generic white bread culture is pretty absurd.
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Blue3
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 11:40:16 PM »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.

1-I'm only talking about the whites in San Francisco.
2-San Francisco doesn't today (I suppose it did in Dan White's time) have any real "ethnic" white neighborhoods. The white areas are all very integrated and full of whites from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The Castro is actually a perfect example of this since it's a gay neighborhood, not one with any type of ethnic flavor.

I'm sure these people totally agree with you.
http://www.russiancentersf.com/
http://www.irishcentersf.org/
https://www.jccsf.org/

Those aren't entire NEIGHBORHOODS.
SF has a "Little Russia" neighborhood.
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Derpist
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 11:55:26 PM »
« Edited: April 17, 2016, 11:58:44 PM by Derpist »

San Francisco is generic white culture? It's 42% non Hispanic white, and has the Mission, which has a long Hispanic tradition dating back to Spanish times, the Castro which is noted for its gay community, and the oldest Chinatown in the US. Go home, you're drunk.

1-I'm only talking about the whites in San Francisco.
2-San Francisco doesn't today (I suppose it did in Dan White's time) have any real "ethnic" white neighborhoods. The white areas are all very integrated and full of whites from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds. The Castro is actually a perfect example of this since it's a gay neighborhood, not one with any type of ethnic flavor.

I'm sure these people totally agree with you.
http://www.russiancentersf.com/
http://www.irishcentersf.org/
https://www.jccsf.org/

Those aren't entire NEIGHBORHOODS.
SF has a "Little Russia" neighborhood.

Which is probably the only neighborhood that votes Republican.

This is a fantastic post and I wish it could be turned into an article for some newspaper somewhere.

I feel this bias is specifically targeted at white ethnics though. Lots of ethnicities celebrate things of dubious historical value (see: Columbus Day). They don't get mad at all ethnicities though.

Look at how batsh**t insane liberals went over Russia's LGBT issues while Iran literally stones gay people to death (and they don't go similarly batsh**t about Iran).

In a way, I actually feel its kind of racist, because there's this undertone that only "white people" (however they define it) have true moral agency.
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2016, 12:15:40 AM »

They are the borg, brtd.
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Santander
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2016, 12:24:53 AM »

They oppose any attempts to block Mexicans and Muslims from immigrating but once they do they want them to be completely assimilated.
This is just not true. If they actually believed in assimilation, I wouldn't have such disdain for the Democrats. Today's liberals want a secular, multicultural society where we ignore the British Liberal/Protestant values that built America and bend to accommodate every minority culture and religion.
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2016, 12:43:04 AM »

The most anti-culture ideology is some stepchild of Maoism or other.
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2016, 01:24:23 AM »

Perhaps in the American context it is, but certainly not in the world context (echoing Nathan here).
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2016, 02:43:30 AM »
« Edited: April 18, 2016, 02:51:15 AM by Sprouts Farmers Market »

Echoing the above and adding that liberal assimilation is destroying the everything and at its core is the greatest evil in existence. Literally very close to Nazi Germany on my list. America needs more immigration and less assimilation if we truly want to Make America Great Again

Just another reason why white people are the worst
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2016, 07:46:28 AM »

Much aa I lack the experience of BRTD, who has undergone an impressive Jane Goodall-esque immersive experience in liberal Americana, I'm sceptical.  He has two central hypotheses:

A) that liberal Americans are more hostile to cultural deviation and find more solace in a monoculture than, say, non-liberal Americans or liberal non-Americans

B)  that liberal Americans are more dismissive of their own ethnic background than others, as they are more bound by non-ethnic socio/political/economic/'cultural ties than their ancestry.

I outright disagree with Point A. From what I know of American liberalism it doesn't square at all. If you were talking about French liberalism, then yes, BE FREE LIKE ME OR BE SHUNNED would be a fair catchphrase. But American liberalism is often:
- hostile to cultural imperialism (whatever that is). At its most extreme this goes to the ridiculousness of 'cultural appropriation', but American liberals seem very concerned about cultures being Americanised etc.

- liberals are often proud of their supposed connection with foreign or indigenous cultures. It's old stereotypes: the urbane liberal proudly lists their experience with exotic foods and looks down on the sort of person who considers Olive Garden as an authentic Italian experience.  Liberals are stereotyped as going to Native American reservations, or yogic retreats, or trips to Paris to "find themselves". I mean, perhaps that shows something more disturbing if you wish to pooh-pooh these people (I.e. liberals view other cultures as some sort of interesting buffet to be sampled at one's amusement), but I don't see hostility or demands to assimilate in there.

Part B is more accurate, but hardly unique to liberal Americans. First, I'd like to point out that region where most Americans identify themselves as Americans (as opposed to HyphenatedWhiteAmericans) is the South. Like right-wing evangelical south. Clearly it isn't just liberals who eschew the labels of their ancestors in favour of some new common ground to form an in-group with.

Basically people will form groups around anything. When new groups are formed they tend to focus on common ground (like passion for emoviolent post punk) rather than increasingly distant ethnic labels. Most white ethnics, unless they are in groups hostile to mixed marriage, are basically dissipating throughout the country. (There are still enclaves, but I think they're more the exception rather than the rule).

It's a young person's instinct to to form a micro-community that reflects their values and create their own personal utopia, often by explicitly rejecting the labels that our parents used to describe themselves. It's our privilege. I don't see any evidence that such behaviour is any more common in liberal white Americans than any other group.
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2016, 07:57:06 AM »


Are Isis fighters the most anti culture ideology?

Something that came to me in a discussion on AAD. But most Muslim 'Isis fighters " do not give a f[inks] if any practice or element of one's identity is heavily tied to their culture or heritage if it has any conflict with shariah values. Anything that contradicts salafosm in any way must be destroyed. Notice how they don't care in the slightest about Yazidi temples importance to the Yazidi community, it must be abolished for not representing salafi values. They oppose any attempts to block Sufis and Shias from convering but once they do they want them to be completely Salafi.

Also as I noted, the strongholds of ISIS fighters tend to be extremely assimilated Sunni, generic islamic culture places. Al-Raqqa, Mosul, are all notable for not having any real "minority" neighborhoods left, almost all the Muslims here are very assimilated Sunni ypes.

Think of a stereotypical Baghdadi supporter. Does that seem like someone who'd frequently celebrate their ethnic traditions and heritage?
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2016, 02:59:25 PM »

Crabcake is entirely right. I can attest that with regard to French leftism (calling that "liberalism" is just wrong Tongue).
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2016, 10:34:45 PM »

Echoing the above and adding that liberal assimilation is destroying the everything and at its core is the greatest evil in existence. Literally very close to Nazi Germany on my list. America needs more immigration and less assimilation if we truly want to Make America Great Again

Just another reason why white people are the worst

The bolded is one of the unfortunate casualties from this year's Republican Primary: the idea that anything short of rounding up every illegal alien and deporting them immediately makes you a pawn for either the Democrats or "The Establishment" has taken root. There used to be a place within the GOP, probably a majority opinion even, that some form of amnesty is a necessity and that immigration is, in general, a good thing. Now the vast primordial roar of the Trump campaign has made it appear as though there is no longer a place for such views on humanity.
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2016, 11:46:11 PM »

Echoing the above and adding that liberal assimilation is destroying the everything and at its core is the greatest evil in existence. Literally very close to Nazi Germany on my list. America needs more immigration and less assimilation if we truly want to Make America Great Again

Just another reason why white people are the worst

The bolded is one of the unfortunate casualties from this year's Republican Primary: the idea that anything short of rounding up every illegal alien and deporting them immediately makes you a pawn for either the Democrats or "The Establishment" has taken root. There used to be a place within the GOP, probably a majority opinion even, that some form of amnesty is a necessity and that immigration is, in general, a good thing. Now the vast primordial roar of the Trump campaign has made it appear as though there is no longer a place for such views on humanity.

Just to be clear, you are saying my view should still exist but has gone extinct, correct? (Not that you necessarily endorse it.) I fully endorse amnesty obviously, but I don't have any stupid assimilation requirements like "must learn English" if you want to stay.
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2016, 04:26:42 PM »

Echoing the above and adding that liberal assimilation is destroying the everything and at its core is the greatest evil in existence. Literally very close to Nazi Germany on my list. America needs more immigration and less assimilation if we truly want to Make America Great Again

Just another reason why white people are the worst

The bolded is one of the unfortunate casualties from this year's Republican Primary: the idea that anything short of rounding up every illegal alien and deporting them immediately makes you a pawn for either the Democrats or "The Establishment" has taken root. There used to be a place within the GOP, probably a majority opinion even, that some form of amnesty is a necessity and that immigration is, in general, a good thing. Now the vast primordial roar of the Trump campaign has made it appear as though there is no longer a place for such views on humanity.

Just to be clear, you are saying my view should still exist but has gone extinct, correct? (Not that you necessarily endorse it.) I fully endorse amnesty obviously, but I don't have any stupid assimilation requirements like "must learn English" if you want to stay.

Yes. My post above was saying the view you expressed should exist. I wouldn't go so far as to say it has gone extinct so much as gone unrepresented in the current cycle, unless you count the Moderate Hero campaign of John Kasich.

Having said that, I will go a step further. I support an amnesty program for the current batch of illegals. I think a legal requirement to speak English would be silly, though I think public schools should teach students English if they don't know it and government agencies should not be required to have foreign language translations. If you choose to speak only Latin to your family and business contacts that's your business. I don't think all cultural distinction need be erased. In fact, I want to preserve most if possible.

I am, and always have been, a pro-immigration Republican.
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2016, 04:52:33 PM »

Echoing the above and adding that liberal assimilation is destroying the everything and at its core is the greatest evil in existence. Literally very close to Nazi Germany on my list. America needs more immigration and less assimilation if we truly want to Make America Great Again

Just another reason why white people are the worst

The bolded is one of the unfortunate casualties from this year's Republican Primary: the idea that anything short of rounding up every illegal alien and deporting them immediately makes you a pawn for either the Democrats or "The Establishment" has taken root. There used to be a place within the GOP, probably a majority opinion even, that some form of amnesty is a necessity and that immigration is, in general, a good thing. Now the vast primordial roar of the Trump campaign has made it appear as though there is no longer a place for such views on humanity.

Just to be clear, you are saying my view should still exist but has gone extinct, correct? (Not that you necessarily endorse it.) I fully endorse amnesty obviously, but I don't have any stupid assimilation requirements like "must learn English" if you want to stay.

Yes. My post above was saying the view you expressed should exist. I wouldn't go so far as to say it has gone extinct so much as gone unrepresented in the current cycle, unless you count the Moderate Hero campaign of John Kasich.

Having said that, I will go a step further. I support an amnesty program for the current batch of illegals. I think a legal requirement to speak English would be silly, though I think public schools should teach students English if they don't know it and government agencies should not be required to have foreign language translations. If you choose to speak only Latin to your family and business contacts that's your business. I don't think all cultural distinction need be erased. In fact, I want to preserve most if possible.

I am, and always have been, a pro-immigration Roman Catholicism Republican.

FTFY Tongue
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