Opinion of the term "regressive left?"

[Thunderbird is the word]

Apologies if this thread has already been done. There seems to be a movement of liberals like Sam Harris and Dave Rubin who attack the left for a perceived softness when it comes to criticizing Islam and overly PC campus liberals. I think they have a grain of truth (the response of much of the left to Charlie Hebdo really WAS atrocious) but tend to blow it out of proportion to the point where they focus strictly on Islam and ignore the effect that our foreign policy has had.

[Famous Mortimer]

The problem with naming this group of people is that as soon as you do, that name becomes some horrible slur that they use to derail arguments. "Oh my god, I'm going to ignore all your arguments and just focus on the fact that you said regressive left or SJW, wow, just wow SMDH, gross, I can't even! Stop!"

[dead0man]

If you haven't noticed, the people most guilty of this HATE talking about the subject.  You might get a drive by from one of them calling you a racist, but don't expect an argument or an explanation.

[Bojack Horseman]

By all means, I'm a liberal. I'm pro choice, pro gay, pro economic sanity. But in today's climate with Bernie Sanders moving the left even further to the left, apparently I'm now a conservative. Maybe the Democrats do need to lose an election to bring the looney left back to the rest of the party.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

has been wildly hypocritical every time i've seen it used

[DC Al Fine]

The phenomenon is clearly real, but the term itself is loaded. An alternative phrase should be found.

[dead0man]

has been wildly hypocritical every time i've seen it used

is that really all your side has as a defense of this?  Come on, where is Tony telling us free speech is overrated?  Where are all the accusations of racism?  If somebody says it should be ok to criticize Islam, I expect some useful idiots to explain why that's the worst thing ever.


You guys are really dropping the ball here.

[beaver2.0]

Never heard it used.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

What's wrong with the good old term 'cultural relativists'?

[The Last Northerner]

What's wrong with the good old term 'cultural relativists'?

There's a difference between tolerating something elsewhere and accepting it being imported to your home. For example, many people dislike how Saudi Arabia runs things but aren't going to go out of their way to change it. If you were to travel to the Middle East, you would be respectful of their customs and tradditions by dressing accordingly and what not. There are certain customs tolerated there that aren't the same at home - wherever you are from. You are a guest to their nation and should respect it regardless if how backward or regressive you believe it to be - if you don't, why go in the first place?

Now imagine if the shoe were on the other foot.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I don't tolerate it elsewhere though. i don't think anybody should be obliged to follow a national dress codes.

I really don't understand what you are arguing for or against?

[The Last Northerner]

regressive left =/= 'cultural relativists'.

I don't like Sharia law but if Saudi Arabia wants to do it in their country, I'm not going to bomb/overthrow them for it (cultural relativism) but if they want to spread it to places where it is not wanted, I'm not going to apolgize for nor defend them (regressive left).

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

But I do think we should try and change Saudi culture where it contravenes the rights of the individual? But apparently I'm 'regressive left' because I feel Muslim women should be able to wear the clothing they want to and that religious minorities should be able to eat halal or kosher food in public schools?

[Lurker]

The problem with naming this group of people is that as soon as you do, that name becomes some horrible slur that they use to derail arguments. "Oh my god, I'm going to ignore all your arguments and just focus on the fact that you said regressive left or SJW, wow, just wow SMDH, gross, I can't even! Stop!"

Well, if you start a discussion with an explicit insult like "the regressive left", it's not like you can possibly expect a contructive debate in the first place. So whatever derailing occurs is your responsbility, regardless of leftist oversensitivity.

[The Last Northerner]

But I do think we should try and change Saudi culture where it contravenes the rights of the individual? But apparently I'm 'regressive left' because I feel Muslim women should be able to wear the clothing they want to and that religious minorities should be able to eat halal or kosher food in public schools?

I disagree with the first part. You are viewing Saudi society through the lens of a western liberal, an outsider whose beliefs may be as alien to them as theirs are to yous. Who are you to say what their rights are? If or when it does change, it will come from a Saudi who has been sufficiently immersed. I generally don't believe in any type of unversality of human rights and the idea of any force to impress one nation's beliefs on another reeks of cultural imperialism.

In terms Muslims elsewhere, it varies by country - the US has a long tradition of religious freedom (too much IMO), a lot of the Muslim bashing is unwarrnted and often ironic  from fundamentalism Christians. On the other hand, countries with a history of laicite or quasi-state atheism like France or Turkey know their history and situation - I wouldn't fight the headscarf ban there.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

While I do agree that true change change must come from within, the idea that human rights changea based on culture and borders is contemptible. All humans deserve to live freely in a way that does not harn others. All humans deserve the right of representation in government.

Laicite is a nice idea, but in practice it is a ludicrous failure. No pushing religions away from the public sphere does not cause it to whither, it adds to its dangerousness. If it is treated with a certain degree of respect, it is defanged and donesticated.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

When they're parroting Stormfront rhetoric on Jews and racial segregation, and saying things like "Some people need to be silenced", and calling for the standard of proof to be lowered for certain criminal convictions, I think it's wholly appropriate.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's a great way to lump people who simply think that making sweeping blanket condemnations of vast world religions is inappropriate and kosher and halal aren't the worst things ever in with George Galloway-style useful idiots and antisemites of the left, so HT.

[Derpist]

A great term for the generation of young SJWswho imagine themselves as Herbert Marcuses when they are really just little Eichmanns engaging in the two-minutes hate that they are told to join in.

[Thunderbird is the word]

It's a great way to lump people who simply think that making sweeping blanket condemnations of vast world religions is inappropriate and kosher and halal aren't the worst things ever in with George Galloway-style useful idiots and antisemites of the left, so HT.

Kind of my thinking, it's a narrow minded way of responding to narrow minded thinking.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

It's a great way to lump people who simply think that making sweeping blanket condemnations of vast world religions is inappropriate and kosher and halal aren't the worst things ever in with George Galloway-style useful idiots and antisemites of the left, so HT.

It becomes one when used that broadly, yeah. I still find it useful for a certain strain of western leftist with no use for democracy.

[Indy Texas]

But I do think we should try and change Saudi culture where it contravenes the rights of the individual? But apparently I'm 'regressive left' because I feel Muslim women should be able to wear the clothing they want to and that religious minorities should be able to eat halal or kosher food in public schools?

Public funds should not be used to subsidize religious beliefs. If a Jewish or Muslim child wants special food, their parents can pay for it and prepare it themselves.

Anyway, that isn't the issue. The issue is Muslims in Britain demanding special "sharia courts" to resolve their differences. The issue is immigrants being unwilling to adopt the customs of their adopted country. The issue is women who don't wear head coverings being made to feel uncomfortable for not doing so in areas with large Muslim populations. The issue is honor killings being committed in Britain and the United States.

Liberals should not allow Western civilization to be undermined by illiberal, uncivilized cultures in the name of "tolerance" or "diversity" or whatever.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Lol. I don't like culture when it conflicts with individual rights and, if you were to stop tilting at windmills, neither does much of the left. The problems you pointed out are merely  symptoms of laziness by bureaucrats or mere inconveniences (I don't like feeling 'uncomfortable' as much as the next person, but I don't want some government enforced safe space).

The problem is I see nothing inherently special about "Western civilisation' or really any culture tbh. I mean I don't want to sound like BRTD, but this obsession with certain people both left and right on maintaining culture is stupid as hell. Nationalism distorts the world economy, keeps people mired in poverty and promotes resentment and conflict? Who cares! Muh culture is safe and staganat!

[dead0man]

AYE!  If an aspect of culture is important or otherwise provides a benefit, it will stick around (and may be adopted and modified by others AND THAT"S OK TOO!), if it's not, it will go away just like it always has.  Same with languages.

[Cory]

It's a great way to lump people who simply think that making sweeping blanket condemnations of vast world religions is inappropriate and kosher and halal aren't the worst things ever in with George Galloway-style useful idiots and antisemites of the left, so HT.

Speak of the devil.....