Northern New England vs Southern New England

[ElectionsGuy]

The vote in both primaries between ME, NH, VT vs CT, MA, RI is pretty big. The lower are much more favorable to Trump and Clinton, the others more favorable to Sanders and other Republicans (Kasich mainly). What is different culturally about these places that makes them so different politically (in intraparty politics)? Particularly upper New England, as lower New England votes as its an extension of the upper Atlantic states.

[pppolitics]

The difference is the timing of the primary.

[Free Bird]

Lower New England is the more statist part definitely, and the Democrats are definitely more liberal. Sans a few wedge issues, the two parties in UNE are basically androgynous. Quite centrist, love bipartisanship. UNE is also a lot more libertarian that SNE. You'll see a lot more survivalists and tough guys in UNE since it is marginally colder and more wild there, but the overarching culture of the overall region is felt all throughout.

[ElectionsGuy]

The difference is the timing of the primary.

I don't think so. Trump nearly got 50% in MA while also getting mid-30's in all of upper New England, including 33% in VT on the same day. Maine is a caucus so unfortunately its not representative of the Republican electorate, but in New Hampshire I'm confident most of that Rubio and Bush vote would've gone to Kasich as a second choice. MA went to Clinton by one point just a few weeks after losing NH by 22 points.

Lower New England is the more statist part definitely, and the Democrats are definitely more liberal. Sans a few wedge issues, the two parties in UNE are basically androgynous. Quite centrist, love bipartisanship. UNE is also a lot more libertarian that SNE. You'll see a lot more survivalists and tough guys in UNE since it is marginally colder and more wild there, but the overarching culture of the overall region is felt all throughout.

If upper New England is centrist, why did it go for the democratic socialist?

[Free Bird]

The difference is the timing of the primary.

I don't think so. Drumpf nearly got 50% in MA while also getting mid-30's in all of upper New England, including 33% in VT on the same day. Maine is a caucus so unfortunately its not representative of the Republican electorate, but in New Hampshire I'm confident most of that Rubio and Bush vote would've gone to Kasich as a second choice. MA went to Clinton by one point just a few weeks after losing NH by 22 points.

Lower New England is the more statist part definitely, and the Democrats are definitely more liberal. Sans a few wedge issues, the two parties in UNE are basically androgynous. Quite centrist, love bipartisanship. UNE is also a lot more libertarian that SNE. You'll see a lot more survivalists and tough guys in UNE since it is marginally colder and more wild there, but the overarching culture of the overall region is felt all throughout.

If upper New England is centrist, why did it go for the democratic socialist?

By centrist I should have put "sensible." We can smell BS a mile away

[Xing]

I think another part of it is the urban/rural divide, as well as income. LNE is much more urban/suburban, which definitely explains why Clinton did much better there, and Trump tends to do quite well in the suburbs. LNE Democrats are more affluent, which is another reason why Clinton was able to win MA/CT.

[RaphaelDLG]

I don't buy the "more liberal" angle but I do buy the statist-libertarian angle

[Figueira]

Upper vs. Lower is probably not the best way to think about New England.

[Kingpoleon]

Lower New England is the more statist part definitely, and the Democrats are definitely more liberal. Sans a few wedge issues, the two parties in UNE are basically androgynous. Quite centrist, love bipartisanship. UNE is also a lot more libertarian that SNE. You'll see a lot more survivalists and tough guys in UNE since it is marginally colder and more wild there, but the overarching culture of the overall region is felt all throughout.

If upper New England is centrist, why did it go for the democratic socialist?

Sanders has a lot of appeal to foreign policy paleoconservatives(those for fair trade and non-interventionism). He's also quite "libertarian" on guns, the Fed, and a few minor economic/social "liberty" issues.

[IceSpear]

I think another part of it is the urban/rural divide, as well as income. LNE is much more urban/suburban, which definitely explains why Clinton did much better there, and Trump tends to do quite well in the suburbs. LNE Democrats are more affluent, which is another reason why Clinton was able to win MA/CT.

Yep, it's urban vs. rural. Hillary only won MA because of Boston, and only won CT because of the NYC metro area.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Connecticut is the only New England state with a closed primary, and it was both Bernie's worst New England state and best closed primary.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also Upper New England Was Dominated by the republicans from 1932-1992 while lower new england was solidly democrat since 1932

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Also Upper New England Was Dominated by the republicans from 1932-1992 while lower new england was solidly democrat since 1932

Vermont was never Democratic until recently. NH and Maine would sometimes vote Democratic. Connecticut wasn't solidly Democratic until recently.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also Upper New England Was Dominated by the republicans from 1932-1992 while lower new england was solidly democrat since 1932

Vermont was never Democratic until recently. NH and Maine would sometimes vote Democratic. Connecticut wasn't solidly Democratic until recently.

Thats upper North East which is what I said was GOP till 1992

[Blue3]

Just so people know... we call it Southern New England.

Have never heard anyone call us "Lower New England" before this thread.

[ElectionsGuy]

Just so people know... we called is Southern New England.

Have never heard anyone call us "Lower New England" before this thread.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, lol. I'll change the thread title if that makes you feel better.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Massachusetts and Connecticut are two of the most unequal states in the country. To my knowledge, along with New York, they blow the former Confederacy out of the water. The financial sector looms large in Connecticut and the academic-industrial complex looms large in Massachusetts; both states once contained a very light manufacturing sector. As a result, both states are sharply polarized along class-lines; there's a tremendous cultural divide between Boston and the rest of Massachusetts and another tremendous cultural divide between the New York metro area in CT and the rest of the state. Contrary to stereotypes involving "WASPs" or "Yankee culture", neither state is particularly defined by the elites but, regardless, the elites of the Boston metro area and Fairfield County punch above their weight.

For whatever reason, these stereotypes about WASPs have been applied to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, even though the three above states are, if anything, dominated by the scruffy remnants of long-dead industrial communities, logging towns and small-farming. Yes, there are resort towns in Maine/New Hampshire, some wealthy migrants to all three states but, ultimately, they are incredibly poor in comparison to their counterparts in MA and NH.

Hopefully, if the primary process has imparted any knowledge, it is that New England is not some sort of highly-affluent, highly-educated, enlightened liberal utopia. Sure, the median voter in this region is unusually secular but it's still a hotbed of chauvinistic nationalism and a large degree of racist sentiment, as evidenced by the triumph of LePage in 2014. Further, it would be a mistake to see any of these states as a citadel for Obama-style technocratic, education-focused liberalism.

edit: I ignored Rhode Island because it might as well be on a different planet imo.

[Oak Hills]

Don't Massachusetts and Rhode Island have more ancestry Italians and Irish, whereas Vermont and Maine have more ancestry from Britain and France? Does that change anything, or have any impact?

Yes, and especially Rhode Island is far more Catholic. Indeed, Rhode Island is the most Catholic state in the Union iirc.

[Blue3]

Don't Massachusetts and Rhode Island have more ancestry Italians and Irish, whereas Vermont and Maine have more ancestry from Britain and France? Does that change anything, or have any impact?

Lots of Irish and Italians but I don't think they're a majority. We still have lots of British descendants, some French, some Portuguese, and now a lot of Hispanics. Or at least RI does.

Don't Massachusetts and Rhode Island have more ancestry Italians and Irish, whereas Vermont and Maine have more ancestry from Britain and France? Does that change anything, or have any impact?

Yes, and especially Rhode Island is far more Catholic. Indeed, Rhode Island is the most Catholic state in the Union iirc.

Catholic in name not in practice for the most part, though we do have lots and lots of churches.

Massachusetts and Connecticut are two of the most unequal states in the country. To my knowledge, along with New York, they blow the former Confederacy out of the water. The financial sector looms large in Connecticut and the academic-industrial complex looms large in Massachusetts; both states once contained a very light manufacturing sector. As a result, both states are sharply polarized along class-lines; there's a tremendous cultural divide between Boston and the rest of Massachusetts and another tremendous cultural divide between the New York metro area in CT and the rest of the state. Contrary to stereotypes involving "WASPs" or "Yankee culture", neither state is particularly defined by the elites but, regardless, the elites of the Boston metro area and Fairfield County punch above their weight.

For whatever reason, these stereotypes about WASPs have been applied to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, even though the three above states are, if anything, dominated by the scruffy remnants of long-dead industrial communities, logging towns and small-farming. Yes, there are resort towns in Maine/New Hampshire, some wealthy migrants to all three states but, ultimately, they are incredibly poor in comparison to their counterparts in MA and NH.

Hopefully, if the primary process has imparted any knowledge, it is that New England is not some sort of highly-affluent, highly-educated, enlightened liberal utopia. Sure, the median voter in this region is unusually secular but it's still a hotbed of chauvinistic nationalism and a large degree of racist sentiment, as evidenced by the triumph of LePage in 2014. Further, it would be a mistake to see any of these states as a citadel for Obama-style technocratic, education-focused liberalism.




edit: I ignored Rhode Island because it might as well be on a different planet imo.

Now I'm curious for your take on Rhode Island


We are based off the mills of the Providence, Pawtucket, Central Falls, and Woonsocket. The American Industrial Revolution began here, at Slater Mill along the Blackstone River. But once those mill jobs left, the state never truly recovered. And now we have nearly a Hispanic majority in the cities mentioned above (probably do have a majority in Central Falls), which most people don't think of states so far north of the border.

Just so people know... we called is Southern New England.

Have never heard anyone call us "Lower New England" before this thread.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, lol. I'll change the thread title if that makes you feel better.

Thanks but you didn't need to lol, it wasn't offensive I just never ever heard of those terms before.

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

Also Upper New England Was Dominated by the republicans from 1932-1992 while lower new england was solidly democrat since 1932

Vermont was never Democratic until recently. NH and Maine would sometimes vote Democratic. Connecticut wasn't solidly Democratic until recently.

The fact that the Republican vote in Vermont went from 72% in 1956 to 34% in 1964 while the Republican vote in Mississippi went from 24% to 87% over the same period is perhaps the most mind-boggling election stat I can think of.