What happens when no candidate gets to 270 and the House has changed parties?
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  What happens when no candidate gets to 270 and the House has changed parties?
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Author Topic: What happens when no candidate gets to 270 and the House has changed parties?  (Read 1718 times)
heatcharger
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« on: May 04, 2016, 06:33:55 PM »

Let's say Clinton and Trump tie at 269 for convenience's sake; I know that the House of Reps. would decide. But let's say the Democrats took back the House somehow on the same day... basically my question is when do they vote? Before or after the new class has been sworn in?
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2016, 01:18:53 AM »

Normally it would be the newly elected House. That wasn't always the case though. In the 1824 election it was the outgoing House that elected John Q. Adams. The 20th Amendment changed the start dates for congressional and presidential terms so that the new congress is sworn in before the President. This change did not, as some people suggest, mandate that the new House is the one that chooses the president. However, the date for counting the electoral votes before a joint session of congress, which is set by law, occurs after the new congress is sworn in, so under the current law it's the new House that would then choose the president once it's made official that no candidate got to 270.

But that date could be changed by a new act of congress, so in the scenario you propose the current Republican congress could try to pass a new law moving up the date for counting the electoral votes to before January 3rd, meaning the current House would then get to pick the president.
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President Johnson
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2016, 09:22:10 AM »

The new House votes.

Other than before 1933, the inaugural dates differ. I think this is the reason why Congress assembles on January 3 and presidents are sworn in on January 20.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 06:09:37 AM »

The new House votes.

Other than before 1933, the inaugural dates differ. I think this is the reason why Congress assembles on January 3 and presidents are sworn in on January 20.

The Constitutional Convention in 1787 was out of control. It was supposed to propose amendments to the Articles of Confederation, but instead wrote a whole new constitution. To paper over this coup, the President of the Constitution, George Washington, wrote a letter to the Continental Congress, which was meeting in New York, requesting that they pass it on to the States, and also keep track of any ratifications, and in the event that nine states ratified the constitution, set up the process for it being instituted. The Continental Congress passed the proposed constitution onto the states, where it could be considered by state conventions, bypassing the legislatures.

By summer of 1789, 9 states had ratified the constitution, but the Continental Congress waited for Virginia to ratify, and then could not determine where the new Congress would meet. The Continental Congress operated by state delegations, and delegations from states which had not ratified the Constitution abstained, reasoning they should set the meeting place for an organization that they might not join. An abstention was equivalent to a No vote, for any motion that required 7 of the 13 states. Eventually, they agreed to have the new Congress meet in New York, since they could not agree on any other city.

They then set up a schedule for the appointment of presidential electors; meeting of presidential electors; and meeting of Congress, as the first Wednesday in January, February, and March of 1789. The first Wednesday in March 1789, was March 4. A preliminary schedule had proposed beginning the process a month earlier. But for the deadlock over the capital, terms might have begun on February 4.

When Congress met on March 4, 1789, they did not have a quorum, and thus could not do anything official, including counting the electoral votes. Eventually, they had a quorum, counted the electoral votes and determined that George Washington and John Adams had been elected President and Vice President. Washington did not reach New York until June, when he took the oath of office, three months into his first term.

Since the Constitution provides for terms of 2 (representative), 4 (president), and 6 (senator) years, the Congress decided that they would begin on March 4 every 2nd year.

But to avoid the problem of not having a president elected by the beginning of his term, they set up a schedule where the outgoing Congress would count the electoral votes, and if necessary, choose the president and vice president. At the time, it was anticipated that the House would be usually choosing the president - that the election of George Washington by a unanimous electoral vote was an anomaly due to his popularity and prestige.

So they set up a schedule where they would count the electoral vote in January or February, the electors would meet in early December, and the electors would be appointed in November. This would give the House time to elect a president before his term began.

This was not an unreasonable schedule. Congress did not ordinarily meet until December of each year. While the Constitution did not set dates for terms, it did set a default meeting month of December. Congress would typically meet in a long session beginning in December of the odd year, 9 months into their terms, continuing through late spring or early summer. They would then meet in a short session starting in December of the even year in a session that would run through March 3 of the odd year.

Since all representatives are elected every two years, the House could not meet on March 4, since many members might not have been re-elected, or even elected, since many states had not held congressional elections yet. The senate is a continuing body, since 2/3 of members carry over. If there was a new President, they would meet for a week or so, to confirm any cabinet secretaries, and then go home.

In 1801, the lame duck House had to choose between Aaron Burr and Thomas Jefferson who had tied. Even though the intent had been for Jefferson to be president, all Democratic electors voted for both Burr and Jefferson. The Federalists controlled 8 of the 16 state congressional districts, with 2 Democrat, and 2 split. It took 36 ballots before Jefferson was finally elected, as the Federalists believed that Burr would be more willing to make a deal with them. As a result of this election, the 12th Amendment was passed, which results in electors casting separate votes for President and Vice President.

In 1825, the lame duck House chose John Quincy Adams from among Adams, Andrew Jackson, and William Crawford, who were all Democrats. "Donald J" Jackson claimed that the election had been stolen because he had received more popular votes. This election pushed all states but one to switch to popular election of electors, as well as winner take all elections. There was no senate election for Vice President, since John C Calhoun was the almost unanimous choice.

In 1837, the outgoing senate chose Richard Johnson as vice president. The 23 Virginia electors had refused to vote for Johnson as vice president, denying him a majority of electors, even though Martin Van Buren had received a majority for President. In 1840, the Democrats decided not to have a vice presidential candidate. Van Buren running for re-election against William Henry Harrison, lost; and Johnson lost to John Tyler too.

In 1845, Congress set the time of appointment (election) of presidential electors to the 2nd Tuesday after the first Monday in November. This fit into the schedule that had already been established for the presidential electors meeting in early December. All but one state had switched to popular elections for presidential electors. Because of the time needed to canvass statewide results, and then summon the electors to the meeting place, elections were already held in early November. But this established a single date. Tuesday was chosen because that is what New York, the largest state used. The odd construction of the first Tuesday after the first Monday, was to ensure that the time between the election and the meeting of electors in December was always a fixed number of days.

Congressional elections continued to be on a variety of dates, usually coincident with a state election. Many states elected their representatives in the odd year, figuring that since the House usually didn't meet until December they had plenty of time. This also avoided re-electing someone who might then feel free to vote in an unpopular way in the lame duck session, knowing that they had already been elected for another term. The presidential election was treated more like a presidential primary is now as a special election.

Had Abraham Lincoln not received a majority of electoral votes in 1861, the House of Representatives might well have chosen one of the other candidates.

In 1872, Congress set the uniform election date for congressional elections to match the presidential election date. This was act of the northern hegemons enforcing their will. Before the war, such a centralizing of power would have been unthinkable. It also meant that representatives would be elected before the lame duck session, and perhaps a year before the new representatives would begin service.

As time went on, congressional sessions became longer, and there was increased concern about a lame duck House choosing the president. One constitutional amendment that almost made it out of Congress would have switched the beginning of presidential terms to May, when the weather for an inauguration would be more tolerable.

The 20th Amendment revised the beginning of terms for Congress from March 4 to January 3, and for the President from March 4 to January 20. The default meeting date for Congress was changed from December (9 months into the term) to January 3, coincident with the start of the term.

The 17-day delay permitted an incoming Congress to count the electoral votes, and if necessary to elect a president. But it wasn't so long that they would be twiddling their their thumbs waiting for a new president to show up.

For Congress, the amendment took practical effect on January 3, 1934, when Congress began their session for 1934; and January 3, 1935  (for representatives and senators elected in November 1934). Those elected in November 1932 had their term shortened by two months.

For President, the amendment took practical effect on January 20, 1937 (FDR's 1st term was shortened about 1-1/2 months).

After the 20th Amendment was first passed, Congress would typically meet from January 3 in the odd year, to fall, and then from January 3 in the even year to summer. This was particularly true after WWII was over.

This schedule gave representatives a few months break between terms, and then several months before the next election. Now that representatives can fly home on weekends, and can campaign by TV commercial, sessions have got longer and longer. It is impractical to have any other career, so they become career politicians, and effective reside in Washington or its suburbs.
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Nym90
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 10:48:37 AM »

The new House votes, but keep in mind that each state delegation gets one vote.

So in 2017, even if Democrats win a narrow House majority, there is a good chance that the GOP will still control a majority of state delegations.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2016, 10:10:15 PM »

The new House votes, but keep in mind that each state delegation gets one vote.

So in 2017, even if Democrats win a narrow House majority, there is a good chance that the GOP will still control a majority of state delegations.

Or that no one controls a majority of 26 delegations.  Tied delegations don't vote so they effectively count as a vote against all the presidential nominees under consideration.  If the Senate also splits 50-50, we may end up with no President-elect or Vice President-elect come the 20th, in which case the Speaker of the House becomes Acting President (if eligible).
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2016, 10:13:30 PM »

The new House votes, but keep in mind that each state delegation gets one vote.

So in 2017, even if Democrats win a narrow House majority, there is a good chance that the GOP will still control a majority of state delegations.

Or that no one controls a majority of 26 delegations.  Tied delegations don't vote so they effectively count as a vote against all the presidential nominees under consideration.  If the Senate also splits 50-50, we may end up with no President-elect or Vice President-elect come the 20th, in which case the Speaker of the House becomes Acting President (if eligible).

I think the Vice President (Biden) gets to break a 50-50 tie in the Senate. If the House is deadlocked, the Vice President elect becomes President.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2016, 10:34:56 PM »

No, the rule given in the 12th amendment is that a majority of the whole number of Senators is needed, so that's 51 Senators since we have 100 Senators. Even if a Senator isn't there for the vote so that there is a 50-49 majority in the vote that's not sufficient.

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The Vice President has no role in selecting his successor beyond voting in November.

(There's also the awkward possibility of 34 Republican or Democratic Senators refusing to show up so that there is no Quorum, but I don't think we've reached that level of incivility just yet.)
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