Does this forum completely fail to understand working class whites?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I mean, it's hard to understand a demographic that doesn't exist on the forum.

I exist.

Yes Virginia, there are working class whites on this Forum.

So are we being invaded by girls and working class whites?

[RINO Tom]

I literally don't know any personally, so yes, I'm completely ignorant on the subject.

[This account no longer in use.]

I'd still argue that the forum is made up of mostly upper-middle class whites.

As for me, it depends on what the definition of 'working class' we're using is.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So are we being invaded by girls and working class whites?

I've been here for more than a decade so it hardly counts as an invasion.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, but in fairness a lot of this is because the media don't understand the working class either, and Atlas parrots the pundits a lot.

^^^

Part of the issue is the weird way in which ideas of class and masculinity merge in the heads of a lot of the punditocracy.

[Serenity Now]

This is the one thing I'm most certain about when it comes to this forum..

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I think most of the posters ARE working-class whites.

Oldiesfreak, you are one of a kind.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Yes, though I'm never really sure myself who qualifies as "working class."

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This is the first unanimous poll I've seen in my years here.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Yes, but I still think I've judged them appropriately.

[Badger]

So are we being invaded by girls and working class whites?

I've been here for more than a decade so it hardly counts as an invasion.

Forgive my ignorance Al, but aren't/weren't you like a doctoral student or something? Not that the two can't theoretically be reconciled, but......

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I should say in the interest of honesty that I genuinely do not know what class I am at this point.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I don't think this forum has a very good understanding of class, probably because it's a very American forum and political scientists in America tend to define class in terms of educational attainment. To be fair, that's an entirely terrible proxy for class but it would be nice if political scientists bothered looking at other Census data like occupational structure or various surveys.

One of the oddities about class, oddities that are often unrecognized in the US, is that it's often very unrelated with income. There are quite a few unionized electricians or carpenters or teamsters who take home very fat pay-checks. Many of them do not have mortgages on their houses or live on pensions etc. Even as "immiserated" as blue collar workers are, many of them started working in a time when they were paid quite, earning wages that are the equivalent of 40 dollars an hour.

Some contemporary issues relating to class in the US:
-class identities have withered as of late because, well, there's no sense of shared anything much less a strong identification with occupation-based culture. if there are few jobs left in a community for those who have little education that go beyond delivering pizzas, it stands to reason that people would lose a sense of identity that came with being a worker. a big part of "working class" culture was once identification with vocations that had very clear connections with the basic functioning of society. some of these vocations were routinized or automated and, thus, deemed to be "unskilled" labor but they still required a good deal of physical labor/strain and produced something tangible. this is no longer the case for many workers
-how should traditionally "middle class" occupations be categorized now that they are occupations that are subject to sprawling organizational structures and managerial discretion? for instance, doctors, lawyers, and the like were once independent "professionals" with their solo practices. this is increasingly not the case. there are more relevant examples in the present: statisticians, chemists, biologists and, in general, researchers were once given more independence as academics. now, they are increasingly subject to corporate-like structures in universities and they are more likely to work in a private sector that treats them as disposable workers deserving of less than adequate pay.

[morgieb]

Well most of us are middle-class white guys. Few of us actually have any connection to working-class whites.

[Torie]

In my view, class is best defined by culture and values. Way back in college and business school, examples that were offered up were say with furniture. The working class wants something that is durable, the lower middle class wants something that is conventional and respectable, the upper middle class wants something with high style. The upper middle class emphasizes achievement and individuality, the lower middle class emphasizes conventionality and respectability, and I don't remember what the working class emphasized. The upper middle class has the longest time horizon (defer immediate gratification to achieve long term goals), and as you go down the scale, the time horizon shortens, until when you get to the lower class, it is mostly about immediate gratification. I really don't think class per se has much to do about money, although obviously there is a correlation.

When I go to places like Hopewell Junction in Dutchess County near the Putnam County line (definitely in the NYC metro orbit Jimrtex, in a way northern Dutchess County definitely is not), I see all of these McMansions with conventional and rather tasteless cookie cutter architecture. Obviously these folks have money, but to me they are lower middle class. The upper middle class prefers homes with individuality in architecture, preferably something rather old and historic.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Forgive my ignorance Al, but aren't/weren't you like a doctoral student or something? Not that the two can't theoretically be reconciled, but......

I'm a part time doctoral student, yes. And my father is an electrician, I grew up in a small terraced house and in order to support myself financially at present I'm a shop worker. Working class people are allowed to dream and do crazy things as well, you know.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't think this forum has a very good understanding of class, probably because it's a very American forum and political scientists in America tend to define class in terms of educational attainment. To be fair, that's an entirely terrible proxy for class but it would be nice if political scientists bothered looking at other Census data like occupational structure or various surveys.

And as a proxy for class it has become even worse in recent decades. Like we've reached the point we're they're accidentally adding an age factor into class (i.e. due to lower levels of educational qualifications in older generations), which is beyond laughable.

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This is an interesting point. We now live in a world in which the dominant class is the managerial class and in which the social standing (and economic position) of a lot of historic 'professional' occupations has pretty much fallen off a cliff.

[Kingpoleon]

I'd still argue that the forum is made up of mostly upper-middle class whites.

As for me, it depends on what the definition of 'working class' we're using is.

The working class is used by some to mean below lower middle class, but by others it can mean those in the 30-45 percentile range.

[RINO Tom]

After reading the WV thread, I'd say "actively hate" would be a better term.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

After reading the WV thread, I'd say "actively hate" would be a better term.

Indeed. But the Atlas bubble won't be popped anytime soon, sadly.

[All Along The Watchtower]

A solid majority of working class whites (outside of the South) are loyal Democrats, and most have more liberal views in general (but particularly on economic issues) than middle and upper class whites (which are the bulk of this forum's posters, so...).

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

How is is possible that option yes won overwhelmingly and still forum completely fail to understand working class whites?

[All Along The Watchtower]

-class identities have withered as of late because, well, there's no sense of shared anything much less a strong identification with occupation-based culture. if there are few jobs left in a community for those who have little education that go beyond delivering pizzas, it stands to reason that people would lose a sense of identity that came with being a worker. a big part of "working class" culture was once identification with vocations that had very clear connections with the basic functioning of society. some of these vocations were routinized or automated and, thus, deemed to be "unskilled" labor but they still required a good deal of physical labor/strain and produced something tangible. this is no longer the case for many workers

To further elaborate on this astute analysis and put it into my own words, I would add that the low-wage, often non-unionized service economy that has become the main source of employment for working class Americans has really upended notions of the working class that had previously been strongly associated with industrial employment and other "blue-collar" occupations.

Furthermore, working class people have much less bargaining power than they had in the past, which makes sense if you consider how much the unionized workforce has been decimated (particularly in the private sector, which is where the bulk of working class whites are employed). Consequently, workers are directly competing with each other for decent-paying jobs that are increasingly scarce. Small wonder, then, that workers whose wages have been stagnant or falling for decades feel less solidarity with other workers, and less willingness to have their tax dollars (which make up a large share of their income) spent on services for the poor.

[RFayette]

A solid majority of working class whites (outside of the South) are loyal Democrats, and most have more liberal views in general (but particularly on economic issues) than middle and upper class whites (which are the bulk of this forum's posters, so...).

Agreed, but many people think upper-income blue collar workers (like owners of a plumbing company), who are really Republican, are part of the working class.  That's the confusion, I think.

[Figueira]

I should say in the interest of honesty that I genuinely do not know what class I am at this point.

Me neither. I'm pretty sure I'm middle class, but I'm not sure if I'm upper middle class, lower middle class, or middle middle class (is that a thing?).