Opinion of Rfayette (read quote before answering)

[RFayette]

There are ways to disapprove of Islam without being a racist ass and telling a Muslim that he should be banned from the country.

1. Islam is not a race.
2. Xahar lives in the USA already, so I'm not saying he should be banned from the country.
3.  Wanting to control immigration levels of those of a certain belief system isn't "racist."  It's just looking at what's happened to parts of Germany, Belgium, and France, and responding accordingly.  Sharia Now is a major political party in Brussels.  I don't want that to happen in America.  Nothing racist about that.

"Major" = 2% of the vote in Brussels? (Assuming you're talking about the ISlam Party, not 'shariah now').

And yes, Islam is not a race. Neither are Catholics, but we recognise in retrospect that the panic about subversive papists was racist blather.

I have no problem with Arab Christians emigrating to the US.  So explain how opposing Muslim immigration makes me a racist?

[Mr. Reactionary]

Supporting a poll tax is dumb but its not like its irreconcilable with coexistence. Are we not allowed to have 1 or 2 weird opinions anymore? We had an entire thread on those once, and there were a lot of political opinions more objectionable than a poll tax. https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=223199.0

[IceSpear]

Supporting a poll tax is dumb but its not like its irreconcilable with coexistence. Are we not allowed to have 1 or 2 weird opinions anymore? We had an entire thread on those once, and there were a lot of political opinions more objectionable than a poll tax. http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=223199.0

You haven't noticed by now that Atlas likes to occasionally have random and disproportionate freakouts/pile ons? A few people tried to crucify me before with the righteous indignation of holy warriors for the crime of...posting pictures of hicks off Google Images and pretending they were WV voters. I've actually learned to love this aspect of the forum, even when I'm a victim of it. I think I might've started another one tonight (once again West Virginia related. Man, you guys sure are touchy about that subject.)

The weirdest thing is how laughably inconsistent the witch hunts are. I tried to start one before against a guy who talked about how he used to believe women who got abortions should be beheaded, and the forum responded with a collective shrug. I guess I didn't go through proper procedure or something?

[Mr. Reactionary]

The weirdest thing is how laughably inconsistent the witch hunts are. I tried to start one before against a guy who talked about how he used to believe women who got abortions should be beheaded, and the forum responded with a collective shrug. I guess I didn't go through proper procedure or something?

Yeah, lynch mobs are weird.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

There are ways to disapprove of Islam without being a racist ass and telling a Muslim that he should be banned from the country.

1. Islam is not a race.
2. Xahar lives in the USA already, so I'm not saying he should be banned from the country.
3.  Wanting to control immigration levels of those of a certain belief system isn't "racist."  It's just looking at what's happened to parts of Germany, Belgium, and France, and responding accordingly.  Sharia Now is a major political party in Brussels.  I don't want that to happen in America.  Nothing racist about that.

"Major" = 2% of the vote in Brussels? (Assuming you're talking about the ISlam Party, not 'shariah now').

And yes, Islam is not a race. Neither are Catholics, but we recognise in retrospect that the panic about subversive papists was racist blather.

I have no problem with Arab Christians emigrating to the US.  So explain how opposing Muslim immigration makes me a racist?

Jesus.  You really don't get it, do you.

I'll try and make this as easy as possible for you to comprehend.  Religion is more than just a mutual set of beliefs and values; it is, quite significantly, harmonic with race: an integral part of a person's identity.  It is one of the very first aspects of culture that human beings are exposed to along with their race.  And it should go without saying that for, well, most people, one's faith is far more important to them than their race.

And I understand that this is obviously harder to appreciate for someone born into a developed society that more or less shares their values - as I believe you were.

So, are you a "racist" because you oppose Muslim immigration?  Technically, by that account, no.  But the fact that religion is malleable, and race is not, does not give you a free pass to impose religious litmus tests.  Because, as with racism, you are instituting something that inevitably separates a person from their culture and you are using that marker to disparage them or treat them as something less than a human being.

In short: you're really just thinking along the same lines as a racist.  Which makes you no better.

[RFayette]

There are ways to disapprove of Islam without being a racist ass and telling a Muslim that he should be banned from the country.

1. Islam is not a race.
2. Xahar lives in the USA already, so I'm not saying he should be banned from the country.
3.  Wanting to control immigration levels of those of a certain belief system isn't "racist."  It's just looking at what's happened to parts of Germany, Belgium, and France, and responding accordingly.  Sharia Now is a major political party in Brussels.  I don't want that to happen in America.  Nothing racist about that.

"Major" = 2% of the vote in Brussels? (Assuming you're talking about the ISlam Party, not 'shariah now').

And yes, Islam is not a race. Neither are Catholics, but we recognise in retrospect that the panic about subversive papists was racist blather.

I have no problem with Arab Christians emigrating to the US.  So explain how opposing Muslim immigration makes me a racist?

Jesus.  You really don't get it, do you.

I'll try and make this as easy as possible for you to comprehend.  Religion is more than just a mutual set of beliefs and values; it is, quite significantly, harmonic with race: an integral part of a person's identity.  It is one of the very first aspects of culture that human beings are exposed to along with their race.  And it should go without saying that for, well, most people, one's faith is far more important to them than their race.

And I understand that this is obviously harder to appreciate for someone born into a developed society that more or less shares their values - as I believe you were.

So, are you a "racist" because you oppose Muslim immigration?  Technically, by that account, no.  But the fact that religion is malleable, and race is not, does not give you a free pass to impose religious litmus tests.  Because, as with racism, you are instituting something that inevitably separates a person from their culture and you are using that marker to disparage them or treat them as something less than a human being.

In short: you're really just thinking along the same lines as a racist.  Which makes you no better.

If the US were an open-borders state where we let everyone in and then imposed litmus tests, I could understand this point.  But since we're choosy anyways, I don't see why we can't choose as a society, the beliefs of the people who are coming in, or discriminate therein.  And there are valid reasons to oppose Muslim immigration.  Just look at how the Europeans feel about it (and the increased risk of terror attacks), as Derpist pointed out. This doesn't mean all Muslims coming in are bad, but when you have a greater % of rotten apples (i.e. radicals), it causes problems.  Furthermore, those values do shape and change the society, and I don't want a more Islamized society.  I don't want to go down the same path that Europe's gone down.

[Leinad]

People who argue about the terminology are generally wrong. Although it is a clever tactic: trying to use someone's minor slip-up as a diversion away from the real matter at hand.

Also, stopping Muslim immigration is impossible. I mean, if they're so bad you don't want them in the country, why is it impossible for them to lie about their religion? Please, answer this, because the way I see it this is like every other Trump policy: very poorly thought-out and devoid of logic, relying on emotional appeals ("Muslims bad" as Cruz said).

Funny you mention that.  One of my high school teachers happened to be a massive libertarian and had indeed floated the idea of how much better America would be if we went back to restricting the vote to property owners.  

I feel compelled to point out that most libertarians don't think this way.

[RFayette]

Funny you mention that.  One of my high school teachers happened to be a massive libertarian and had indeed floated the idea of how much better America would be if we went back to restricting the vote to property owners.  

I feel compelled to point out that most libertarians don't think this way.

He also joked about Muslims after a terror attack - "totally a religion of peace, guys" - so he wasn't exactly your standard libertarian.

[RFayette]

Also, isn't it amazing that supporting the same position as the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the United States now gets you branded as some evil monster?  

That being said, I think Xahar is fundamentally a good person.  I don't think poorly of all Muslims, as much as I dislike the religion and what it stands for.  We disagree strongly on many issues, but I want to make it clear that I do not hate him.  He can hate me, and that is fine.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Also, isn't it amazing that supporting the same position as the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the United States now gets you branded as some evil monster? 

yes, it is indeed amazing that an evil and monstrous position is now beïng advocated by the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the united states.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Also, isn't it amazing that supporting the same position as the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the United States now gets you branded as some evil monster?  

That being said, I think Xahar is fundamentally a good person.  I don't think poorly of all Muslims, as much as I dislike the religion and what it stands for.  We disagree strongly on many issues, but I want to make it clear that I do not hate him.  He can hate me, and that is fine.

Adolf Hitler was the main leader of the chief political force in Weimar-era Germany in the 1930s and, yes, anyone who was a supporter of his was, in all likelihood, an evil monster who is responsible for the Holocaust. There's hardly any difference between Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler. Trump celebrates torture, touts military solutions to diplomatic solutions, supports mass population transfers for the sake of maintaining purity, believes in a "stab in the back myth" in which a small clique of politicians/elites are responsible for the downfall of America etc. Trump, like Hitler, is a lunatic who has a number of mental disorders.

So yes, I hate you. I hate fascists. I've hated most Republicans for most of my life as well; they were the kids who called me a beaner and taunted me by calling me a "fence hopper" and asking if "my mom was an illegal". Your kind promotes a deeply disturbed worldview in which it is perfectly acceptable to demean and debase immigrants and their children for having the deeply discourteous desire to maintain cultural traditions or to fly the flag of their native country. Further, your kind promotes a deeply disturbed worldview in which Muslims refugees are clearly worth less than Christian refugees and where universal human rights are, in fact, privileges for those who had the good luck to be born with white skin in a European state or a state founded by European settlers. All of these tendencies of Republicans are opinions grounded in corrupted moral values that are chosen, not given by others, so I feel quite confident in saying that I hate most Republicans, without question and I feel no shame about this. If this makes me a bigot, so be it. I have no interest in being friendly towards someone who has decided, out of their own volition, that it is a praiseworthy act to trash a faith of one billion people without a basis or cause that goes deeper than some moronic rhetoric emanating from Stormfront or /pol/.

None of this even mentions the fact that you've repeatedly exalted yourself as some sort of Galt-like figure who deserves to make millions while the poor live miserable existences because, in your view, they are inferior to you. Clearly, you need help and treatment for your asberger's friend. As it turns out, systematically insulting entire classes of people is a bad way to "Make Friends and Influence People". It's, generally speaking, a bad practice to advocate for steep immigration barriers on the basis of the inferiority and danger posed by immigrants, which insinuates that immigrants and their children are inferior to you!

I have some advice: seriously consider why you have a tendency to get sucked into cults. First, it was some wingnut Evangelical group. Now, it is a fascist mass movement. What's next, joining the Church of Scientology? Ask yourself why extremism is so compelling to you and why you feel the need to lash out at liberal institutions that have treated you so well. I, myself, have clear causes and answers for why I am "on the left" and I am open to discussing why they are related to intimate facts about my life. It is okay to do this. You do not need to discuss them on a public forum but it might be worth doing for your own sake. There's something very unhealthy about your forum behavior and how you manage to act in a very toxic manner on a regular basis!

[Mopsus]

Your kind promotes a deeply disturbed worldview in which it is perfectly acceptable to demean and debase immigrants and their children for having the deeply discourteous desire to maintain cultural traditions or to fly the flag of their native country.

Here's the thing, though... if you're a person of Mexican descent who lives in the United States, that's obviously because you believe that the United States is a better country the Mexico*; so, why wouldn't you do everything in your power to assimilate to the country that you yourself (implicitly if not explicitly) recognize as superior?

I don't ask this in a snarky or condescending manner, by the way: as someone whose last immigrant ancestors came to this country around the turn of the twentieth century, I'm interested in seeing the outlook of those more in-touch with the immigrant experience.

*Incidentally, this line of thinking can be employed as a theological argument: If the God that Muhammad preached about really were the author of human history, wouldn't people from Christian countries be begging to immigrate to Muslim countries, not the other way around?

[All Along The Watchtower]

Also, isn't it amazing that supporting the same position as the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the United States now gets you branded as some evil monster?  

What's amazing is that one of the two major political parties in the United States is now in fact full of evil monsters.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Also, isn't it amazing that supporting the same position as the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the United States now gets you branded as some evil monster?  

What's amazing is that one of the two major political parties in the United States is now in fact full of evil monsters.

This can clearly be applied to both of them.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Anyway, I care for neither the feelings nor the opinions of racist scum.  May all of them suffer an excruciatingly painful end, along with their enablers and apologists.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

To be fair, we had a lot of cringeworthy posters that managed to improve significantly.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Also, isn't it amazing that supporting the same position as the main leader of one of the two major political parties in the United States now gets you branded as some evil monster?  

What's amazing is that one of the two major political parties in the United States is now in fact full of evil monsters.

This can clearly be applied to both of them.

Not, it clearly can't. The Democratic Party, as flawed as it is, is not the choice of Stormfronters who want to appear respectable.

[Virginiá]

Not, it clearly can't. The Democratic Party, as flawed as it is, is not the choice of Stormfronters who want to appear respectable.

To be fair, bigoted voters have to go somewhere. It wasn't that long ago that the Democratic party used to be chalk full of them. At some point in the future, a new generation of assholes could, and probably will, manifest within the Democratic party just the same.

However, I think it is undeniable that right now, Republicans have overwhelmingly taken over the #1 spot for 'party with most assholes / bigots', a spot previously occupied by Democrats only decade(s) ago.

[Asian Nazi]

There are prejudiced assholes in both parties (and outside them, in my case ) but the difference is that the Republican ones tend to be the ones with actual structural power.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Your kind promotes a deeply disturbed worldview in which it is perfectly acceptable to demean and debase immigrants and their children for having the deeply discourteous desire to maintain cultural traditions or to fly the flag of their native country.

Here's the thing, though... if you're a person of Mexican descent who lives in the United States, that's obviously because you believe that the United States is a better country the Mexico*; so, why wouldn't you do everything in your power to assimilate to the country that you yourself (implicitly if not explicitly) recognize as superior?

I don't ask this in a snarky or condescending manner, by the way: as someone whose last immigrant ancestors came to this country around the turn of the twentieth century, I'm interested in seeing the outlook of those more in-touch with the immigrant experience.

*Incidentally, this line of thinking can be employed as a theological argument: If the God that Muhammad preached about really were the author of human history, wouldn't people from Christian countries be begging to immigrate to Muslim countries, not the other way around?

I am not particularly representative of Mexican immigrants but, what I can tell you, is that most Mexican immigrants are not of the opinion that "America is superior". They tend to think that it offers more economic opportunities and, perhaps, a higher quality of life but they do not think that America is superior. Generally speaking, immigration is an economic phenomenon so it's not much of a surprise that immigrants tend to resist assimilation. It's their children that assimilate or who are integrated into American or Canadian or British or French society; the parents rarely do so.

Anyways, my general response to sentiments like these is to say "what I do in the privacy of my home is none of your business". Further, who I am friends with is none of your business and the language that I choose to speak in with my friends is none of your business.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

There are ways to disapprove of Islam without being a racist ass and telling a Muslim that he should be banned from the country.

1. Islam is not a race.
2. Xahar lives in the USA already, so I'm not saying he should be banned from the country.
3.  Wanting to control immigration levels of those of a certain belief system isn't "racist."  It's just looking at what's happened to parts of Germany, Belgium, and France, and responding accordingly.  Sharia Now is a major political party in Brussels.  I don't want that to happen in America.  Nothing racist about that.

"Major" = 2% of the vote in Brussels? (Assuming you're talking about the ISlam Party, not 'shariah now').

And yes, Islam is not a race. Neither are Catholics, but we recognise in retrospect that the panic about subversive papists was racist blather.

I have no problem with Arab Christians emigrating to the US.  So explain how opposing Muslim immigration makes me a racist?

Maybe not a racist, but a bigot for sure.

[Mopsus]

I am not particularly representative of Mexican immigrants but, what I can tell you, is that most Mexican immigrants are not of the opinion that "America is superior". They tend to think that it offers more economic opportunities and, perhaps, a higher quality of life but they do not think that America is superior. Generally speaking, immigration is an economic phenomenon so it's not much of a surprise that immigrants tend to resist assimilation.

So if immigrants' only interest is to use their host countries' economies, with little to no interest in bettering or improving them... can you see why some natives might be hostile to immigration?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Rfayette, at this point, I don't think there's anything left that will change your mind save for a few years of growing up and stepping outside your little bubble.  Until that happens, I'll leave you with a couple of things to consider:

1. America is not becoming "Islamized"; Muslims do not have any structural power in this country obviously compared to that of Christian racists (as others have pointed out)
2. Statistically, you are more likely to be the victim of domestic terror attacks than foreign jihadists
3. I am frankly not fond of seeing my religion hijacked by the likes of you or people who hold such vile theological views that have forced their destructive beliefs onto society and through our code of law.  Regardless, no one with any real power or influence is calling for fundamentalist Christians to be dehumanized the same way you desire for Muslims to be dehumanized.  You are not the victim here.  And if you feel personally insulted by someone here or on AAD, you have the freedom to ignore that person or walk away - something I had learned after multiple disputes with certain users (one that actually impacted my personal privacy, I might add, but that's another story).

[Хahar 🤔]

Here's the thing, though... if you're a person of Mexican descent who lives in the United States, that's obviously because you believe that the United States is a better country the Mexico*;

No, there are many Americans who happen to live in other countries but don't consider the United States inferior to those countries. I find it bizarre that you would assume this.

so, why wouldn't you do everything in your power to assimilate to the country that you yourself (implicitly if not explicitly) recognize as superior?

This doesn't even follow, and it's particularly bizarre in the context of the United States, seeing as that its history of immigration is well known and recognized.

Incidentally, this line of thinking can be employed as a theological argument: If the God that Muhammad preached about really were the author of human history, wouldn't people from Christian countries be begging to immigrate to Muslim countries, not the other way around?

No?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Wtf is this thread.