NV Democratic State Convention

[IceSpear]

Btw, cross-posted from a different thread, and from before the credentials report:

I'm at the NV Dem convention right now, and state party chairwoman Roberta Lange just announced that she agreed the caucus system is outdated and fraught with massive problems.  She and the state party will be looking at moving toward a state-funded primary (crowd went wild) or "massively reforming" the party-funded caucuses (crowd booed).

Glad to see the wind blowing in the right direction.

THANK F[INKS]ING GOD!

[IceSpear]

Sanders supporters are spoiled and entitled in a way that only a movement made of white millennials could be.

It's funny how they feel so entitled to delegates that weren't theirs to begin with.

Can you imagine if Hillary took a chunk of delegates from him in Washington or Utah due to the archaic and byzantine caucus procedure? They'd be going ballistic.

[IceSpear]

You lost a delegate you weren't supposed to have in the first place. Who cares?

Especially since it will be irrelevant regardless, lol.

You guys can calm down, Bernie's paragraph in the history books is already safely assured. Nobody will care if he loses by 300 delegates or 298 delegates.

[IceSpear]

Clinton hacks are known to openly lie to make Bernie people look bad. It is not about 1 or 2 delegates, it is about democracy & people in line not being allowed to vote.

Either ways, this means sh** in the final count, Hillary won anyways, she had a huge lead. But when you screw your opponent & kill democracy to get your way, it is not a great thing. I mean she was winning by 300, her people didn't need to do this. Also the hillary supporters have shown a more deplorable side than trump supporters.

But Hillary won the actual vote. Everything that followed has already been an extreme perversion of democracy, moreso than caucuses inherently are by having no secret ballot, one of the cornerstones of democracy.

Imagine if a world leader in any other country was elected by caucuses. They'd be laughed at by the international community.

[IceSpear]

To anyone talking about muh democracy:



53% Clinton
47% Sanders

And even that was a terrible example of democracy, due to no secret ballot.

With each successive stage of the caucus process, it gets less and less democratic. These awful things seriously need to be abolished. It's impossible to take them seriously now that we're all seeing the underbelly up close and personal.

[IceSpear]

I'm not going to try to defend what some of the Bernie folks are doing (from Joe Republic's account), but I do understand why they're raising a fuss about potential losing a delegate or two. Imagine if it was Sanders who had a  400 delegate lead before a single vote was cast, thanks to nearly universal backing form super delegates. Then, imagine Clinton winning New Hampshire by 22%, only to break even in the total delegate count, since Sanders won all six super delegates. Imagine if the chair of the DNC wasn't subtle at all about her support of Sanders, and wanted to limit the number of debates, preventing Clinton from getting much of a chance to make her case. Then, imagine landslide victories by Clinton in many caucus states were mostly ignored by the media, since Sanders "had it in the bag." Imagine a state that only allowed folks who registered with the Democratic Party six months before the actual contest (which was a very high-stakes contest) to vote, which prevented many potential Clinton supporters from participating, even if they were willing to give their allegiance to the Democratic Party...

Perhaps it's impossible to imagine the tables being turned. It's easy for a Clinton supporter to say that if things had happened in the opposite way, they'd be accepting that Sanders had won, and wouldn't feel as if the system was stacked in Sanders' favor, and wouldn't be paranoid about losing possible delegates. I would bet, though, that many Clinton supporters, some of whom mock the Sanders supporters who act like this (and again, I don't condone their behavior, I'm simply trying to explain that they feel as if the system is "rigged" against Bernie. Whether or not it actually is doesn't have much impact on how they feel) would be acting the same way if things were reversed.

It's actually pretty easy to put the shoe on the other foot. Hillary won NV in 2008, but Obama got more delegates. Her voters in FL were disenfranchised by the DNC, and the entire state of MI was disenfranchised by the DNC. The media was in the tank for Obama from day 1. She arguably won the popular vote, and considering Democrats were so big on the popular vote deciding elections post 2000, you'd think they would've given it to her rather than who got the most delegates based off byzantine and archaic caucus procedures. But that isn't what happened. Unlike in 2016, the overall outcome actually could've been changed by many of those things, but Hillary supporters eventually got over it in the end and accepted the result. No process is going to be completely fair or perfect, but hopefully we can continue moving further in that direction after learning lessons from this year.

[IceSpear]

Hillary won in February 13 delegates to 10. That's fine. I have no qualms with that. Even though the NV Delegate Selection Plan clearly stated that caucus was non-binding in bold font, it is sufficiently ambiguous for me to let that go.

However, Bernie won April. Today, Hillary supporters tried to wrest back in an underhanded fashion the delegates they thought they had rightfully earned.

The popular vote of the state was for Hillary Clinton.  So it is ok for them to overturn the will of the people of Nevada.  How is god's green earth is that fair, or democratic.  Your the one who is trying to steal this nomination, not Hillary and her camp.

This straw man is getting old. The caucus system has multiple tiers, which vote independently of each other.

lol, this from a Trump supporter?  I"m sure you had the same attitude three weeks ago when Cruz was stealing all his delegates at these little conventions.

On that note, as bad as caucuses are, at least Democrats don't have to deal with states outright suspending democracy and having party hacks assign the delegates. Yuck. The media's lack of outrage for this and instead cheerleading Cruz's campaign for being so "organized and disciplined!" and "knowing how to play the shadow game!" was disgusting.

[IceSpear]

Hillary won in February 13 delegates to 10. That's fine. I have no qualms with that. Even though the NV Delegate Selection Plan clearly stated that caucus was non-binding in bold font, it is sufficiently ambiguous for me to let that go.

However, Bernie won April. Today, Hillary supporters tried to wrest back in an underhanded fashion the delegates they thought they had rightfully earned.

The popular vote of the state was for Hillary Clinton.  So it is ok for them to overturn the will of the people of Nevada.  How is god's green earth is that fair, or democratic.  Your the one who is trying to steal this nomination, not Hillary and her camp.

This straw man is getting old. The caucus system has multiple tiers, which vote independently of each other.

lol, this from a Trump supporter?  I"m sure you had the same attitude three weeks ago when Cruz was stealing all his delegates at these little conventions.

I don't think Dax has any concrete ideology. He seems to just be a ridiculous Ron Paul '12/Bernie Sanders '16 conspiracy theorist type.

Are you implying a Ron Paul 2008, Ron Paul 2012, Bernie Sanders 2016, Donald Trump 2016 voter is not ideologically consistent?! Reddit would like to have a word with you.

[IceSpear]

Are you implying a Ron Paul 2008, Ron Paul 2012, Bernie Sanders 2016, Donald Trump 2016 voter is not ideologically consistent?! Reddit would like to have a word with you.

For the record, I was Ron Paul '08, Jill Stein '12, Sanders/Trump '16.

My ideology is stratifying. It does not conform to either the Democratic or Republican platforms in weak resignation.

Exactly how can one support both a libertarian and a socialist?

[IceSpear]

Are you implying a Ron Paul 2008, Ron Paul 2012, Bernie Sanders 2016, Donald Trump 2016 voter is not ideologically consistent?! Reddit would like to have a word with you.

For the record, I was Ron Paul '08, Jill Stein '12, Sanders/Trump '16.

My ideology is stratifying. It does not conform to either the Democratic or Republican platforms in weak resignation.

Exactly how can one support both a libertarian and a socialist?

(Very left)-libertarian

And Trump's right wing nationalism with an authoritarian streak fits in where?

[IceSpear]

Sanders supporters were angry over a voice vote that adopted a set of temporary convention rules as the permanent rules, according to the Las Vegas Sun.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/279930-nevada-dem-convention-devolves-into-chaos

Yeah, they lost the voice vote since they are in the minority. Not hard to figure out.

It was before all the delegates are seated. Congrats on helping Trump by pissing off Bernie supporters  .

The vote took place half an hour after the deadline for delegates to join the line to register for their credentials.  There were barely any lines this time (unlike the county convention, this entire convention has been run relatively efficiently).  So why would it take more than thirty minutes for Bernie delegates to register and take their seats?

Plus, nobody has anything close to a 2/3 majority in here, so I've no idea what you're complaining about.

The vote was a simple majority, and Hillary had slightly more delegates, with not all seated. There wasn't supposed to be a vote at that point.

This whole thing is incredibly penny wise and pound foolish by the Hillary campaign. They might get a handful more delegates because of this, but she was probably going to be the nominee anyways, and this has left many Bernie supporters with such a vendetta against her that they'll even be supporting Trump. The Hillary campaign has shown time and time again that they don't care about reaching out to Bernie supporters. They truly hate them.

"probably"?

[IceSpear]

Bernie side is chanting and screaming, of course.

Is this the last of these stupid caucus conventions? There's no need for you to go through any more of this torture.

[IceSpear]

Just to be clear: is all this hullabaloo over a single delegate?

I think it's more them lashing out and throwing temper tantrums over losing in general, and this convention was a convenient trigger to unleash their fury on a scapegoat.

Bernie sure has a lot of work to do to bring a lot of his deranged minions back to the realm of sanity, much less back into the Democratic fold.

[IceSpear]

Looks like Bernie has let all the hype get to his head. Sad!

[IceSpear]

Snopes just ruled that the chair being thrown is a total lie. Shame on everyone who repeatedly lied to claim that Bernie supporters were violent. The Democratic party will not be forgiven for this.

http://www.snopes.com/did-sanders-supporters-throw-chairs-at-nevada-democratic-convention/

LMAO quoting Snopes is does not add much validity to your argument.

Nice try though, jfern.

Just because your candidate is a compulsive liar doesn't mean that you need to be.

Bernie must be a compulsive liar too. He keeps saying he can win the nomination.

[IceSpear]

Btw, I guess never mind that hundreds of people booed a US senator and progressive icon, with at least one man standing only a few feet away yelling "bitch" at her.  Also never mind that the state party chairwoman has received hundreds of abusive text messages and voicemails, some calling for her to be hanged, after her personal cell and home address were shared online.  Also never mind that the party HQ was vandalized the day after the convention.  As long as nobody threw any chairs, amirite?

And all this fuss because the Bernie side was outwitted after exploiting the convoluted, undemocratic process to steal delegates that Hillary won in February.  Good god.

I do find it hilarious that whether or not a chair was thrown has become the only issue here when so much else went on. As if disproving that one tidbit makes the rest of the facts disappear into the ether. NO CHAIR, CHECKMATE $HILLARIES!