Bullies force halt to vote on allowing alcohol sales in Pine Ridge

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I might be the only one here who's actually lived on a Reservation*. It went dry for about six months. Not long. Why? Because it didn't do crap. There was just as much drunkeness and no tax dollars and it was fueling organized crime. Rez gangs would send people up to Bismarck, stock up and liquor, and then come down and bootleg it like it was the 1920s again. My parents admitted to actually buying "imported" beer a few times, though they mostly would just stock up while visiting Bismarck.

Whiteclay, while rather shady, still at least prevents this from occurring. If it didn't exist people would just stock up in Rapid City and bootleg stuff in from there. So why not just allow it on the Rez itself, have the industry a bit more under control and keep the tax dollars?

Above all that though, I don't want to be a hypocrite. I drink alcohol. I shop at liquor stores. South Minneapolis has liquor stores galore and I don't have a problem with them. So wouldn't it be hypocritical for me to say that somewhere else shouldn't have them?

[Virginiá]

I might be the only one here who's actually lived on a Reservation*. It went dry for about six months. Not long. Why? Because it didn't do crap. There was just as much drunkeness and no tax dollars and it was fueling organized crime. Rez gangs would send people up to Bismarck, stock up and liquor, and then come down and bootleg it like it was the 1920s again. My parents admitted to actually buying "imported" beer a few times, though they mostly would just stock up while visiting Bismarck.

Whiteclay, while rather shady, still at least prevents this from occurring. If it didn't exist people would just stock up in Rapid City and bootleg stuff in from there. So why not just allow it on the Rez itself, have the industry a bit more under control and keep the tax dollars?

Above all that though, I don't want to be a hypocrite. I drink alcohol. I shop at liquor stores. South Minneapolis has liquor stores galore and I don't have a problem with them. So wouldn't it be hypocritical for me to say that somewhere else shouldn't have them?

Prohibition, more so for illicit substances, is generally only effective if it's applied universally. That means every state, every country and all other territories, and has to be applied thoroughly, without corruption. Otherwise, it's like water and leaky pipes. The pressure builds up and water finds a way out.

Policy towards things society doesn't like has, in America, tended to lean heavily towards just banning things we find undesirable. However, the result is we only "ban" it from public view and the problem then moves out of view and remains a problem nonetheless. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature by our leaders. Realistically, you cannot ban a vice. One of the reasons we don't change is because society clearly isn't ready to accept this and clings to a system that rots society from the inside.

[dead0man]

Above all that though, I don't want to be a hypocrite. I drink alcohol. I shop at liquor stores. South Minneapolis has liquor stores galore and I don't have a problem with them. So wouldn't it be hypocritical for me to say that somewhere else shouldn't have them?

Yes it would, but the soft bigotry of lowered expectations never cares about such trivialities.  They must be protected from themselves dontchaknow?

[Asian Nazi]

I might be the only one here who's actually lived on a Reservation*. It went dry for about six months. Not long. Why? Because it didn't do crap. There was just as much drunkeness and no tax dollars and it was fueling organized crime. Rez gangs would send people up to Bismarck, stock up and liquor, and then come down and bootleg it like it was the 1920s again. My parents admitted to actually buying "imported" beer a few times, though they mostly would just stock up while visiting Bismarck.

Whiteclay, while rather shady, still at least prevents this from occurring. If it didn't exist people would just stock up in Rapid City and bootleg stuff in from there. So why not just allow it on the Rez itself, have the industry a bit more under control and keep the tax dollars?

Above all that though, I don't want to be a hypocrite. I drink alcohol. I shop at liquor stores. South Minneapolis has liquor stores galore and I don't have a problem with them. So wouldn't it be hypocritical for me to say that somewhere else shouldn't have them?

Prohibition, more so for illicit substances, is generally only effective if it's applied universally. That means every state, every country and all other territories, and has to be applied thoroughly, without corruption. Otherwise, it's like water and leaky pipes. The pressure builds up and water finds a way out.

Policy towards things society doesn't like has, in America, tended to lean heavily towards just banning things we find undesirable. However, the result is we only "ban" it from public view and the problem then moves out of view and remains a problem nonetheless. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature by our leaders. Realistically, you cannot ban a vice. One of the reasons we don't change is because society clearly isn't ready to accept this and clings to a system that rots society from the inside.

This is a very Ameri-centric worldview.  There are plenty of societies that have successfully eliminated drugs and alcohol.  The problem here isn't hooman nature, it's white assholes profiteering off the alcoholism in marginalized native communities.

[Virginiá]

This is a very Ameri-centric worldview.  There are plenty of societies that have successfully eliminated drugs and alcohol.  The problem here isn't hooman nature, it's white assholes profiteering off the alcoholism in marginalized native communities.

It is a view shaped by life as an American and the fact that many, many Americans want these drugs and other activities. It's different if you are in a society that has a lot less desire for such things. Fixing this on the individual level in America would require some very complex, vast social engineering. Same could be said for many other countries.

However, it doesn't change my main point about prohibition.

[Asian Nazi]

This is a very Ameri-centric worldview.  There are plenty of societies that have successfully eliminated drugs and alcohol.  The problem here isn't hooman nature, it's white assholes profiteering off the alcoholism in marginalized native communities.

It is a view shaped by life as an American and the fact that many, many Americans want these drugs and other activities. It's different if you are in a society that has a lot less desire for such things. Fixing this on the individual level in America would require some very complex, vast social engineering. Same could be said for many other countries.

Centuries ago white people flooded China with opium in a way very similar to how alcohol is being pushed on native communities.  We solved it by shooting the dealers, kicking the white people out, and burning the drugs.  It worked.

That sort of solution won't work in reservations, because unlike China, they are not sovereign in any real sense.  This particular problem requires prohibition of sale and a crackdown on dealers, and also treatment for addicts.  And obviously in order to prevent substance abuse long term in these communities you also need to invest money, provide jobs, and alleviate poverty. 

[Santander]

This is a very Ameri-centric worldview.  There are plenty of societies that have successfully eliminated drugs and alcohol.  The problem here isn't hooman nature, it's white assholes profiteering off the alcoholism in marginalized native communities.

Oh please... easy with the white hate. I almost gave you credit for actually being on the right side of something for once and then you pull this kind of crap.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

This is a very Ameri-centric worldview.  There are plenty of societies that have successfully eliminated drugs and alcohol.  The problem here isn't hooman nature, it's white assholes profiteering off the alcoholism in marginalized native communities.

Oh please... easy with the white hate. I almost gave you credit for actually being on the right side of something for once and then you pull this kind of crap.

'Das right, we took 'der land and now we's gonna done take 'der 'libers.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also if alcohol sales were legal on Pine Ridge they could be regulated unlike in Whiteclay. For example they could have it be municipal owned only stores (currently the case in Standing Rock by the way) with a tracking system to limit sales per week per person. Similar to some states with products that include Meth ingredients. Obviously not fool proof 100% but far more successful than just letting unlimited amounts come in from Whiteclay and Rapid City.

[Intell]

Also if alcohol sales were legal on Pine Ridge they could be regulated unlike in Whiteclay. For example they could have it be municipal owned only stores (currently the case in Standing Rock by the way) with a tracking system to limit sales per week per person. Similar to some states with products that include Meth ingredients. Obviously not fool proof 100% but far more successful than just letting unlimited amounts come in from Whiteclay and Rapid City.

1

So liberals, and it does not work because of dumbs like you, as you value getting drunk rather than humanity.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

My hometown, which has many liquor stores and was the main supplier to Standing Rock, is very far from liberal. Romney got over 60% there.

[Sol]

My hometown, which has many liquor stores and was the main supplier to Standing Rock, is very far from liberal. Romney got over 60% there.

Mandan?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is a very Ameri-centric worldview.  There are plenty of societies that have successfully eliminated drugs and alcohol.  The problem here isn't hooman nature, it's white assholes profiteering off the alcoholism in marginalized native communities.

It is a view shaped by life as an American and the fact that many, many Americans want these drugs and other activities. It's different if you are in a society that has a lot less desire for such things. Fixing this on the individual level in America would require some very complex, vast social engineering. Same could be said for many other countries.

Centuries ago white people flooded China with opium in a way very similar to how alcohol is being pushed on native communities.  We solved it by shooting the dealers, kicking the white people out, and burning the drugs.  It worked.

That sort of solution won't work in reservations, because unlike China, they are not sovereign in any real sense.  This particular problem requires prohibition of sale and a crackdown on dealers, and also treatment for addicts.  And obviously in order to prevent substance abuse long term in these communities you also need to invest money, provide jobs, and alleviate poverty. 

So you think banning alcohol in Pine Ridge is some kind of a solution or no?

Are there any societies which have successfully banned alcohol in the present day?

[TDAS04]

It is a very unfortunate situation.  Alcoholism is a huge problem there, yet the prohibition of alcohol sales on Pine Ridge prevents the Lakota residents from profiting.

They should allow sales, but much more needs needs to be done to improve the lives of these people.

[Cory]

Well maybe if Natives placed more value as a culture on education and not being trash this wouldn't be a problem. And yes I would say the same for poor whites in the Southeast before you predictably try to play that card.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Well maybe if Natives placed more value as a culture on education and not being trash this wouldn't be a problem. And yes I would say the same for poor whites in the Southeast before you predictably try to play that card.

Have you ever visited a rez?

I'm all for personal responsibility, but it's worthwhile to consider why it is that being successful in terms of educational attainment and a healthy lifestyle are more difficult in some communities than in others.

[dead0man]

If Rez life sucks so hard, why do they stay?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If Rez life sucks so hard, why do they stay?

Because they don't have a choice. Poors don't have quite as much mobility to just move somewhere else.

People also often don't understand just how cheap some rezes can be, my parents paid about $400/month in today's dollars for a four bedroom house while living there, thanks mostly to crazy federal subsidies. But it's clear case of you get what you pay for. But if you can't afford anywhere else...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Well maybe if Natives placed more value as a culture on education and not being trash this wouldn't be a problem. And yes I would say the same for poor whites in the Southeast before you predictably try to play that card.

You are a truly disgusting piece of work.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well maybe if Natives placed more value as a culture on education and not being trash this wouldn't be a problem. And yes I would say the same for poor whites in the Southeast before you predictably try to play that card.

Why is this reprobate still posting here? Didn't he claim that he would Never Post Again after that nasty business (wasn't it involving AIDS or something?) a while back? Sad!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Oh and guys stop being racists please, thnx. This is a difficult enough issue even without all that effluent to wade through...

[TDAS04]

If Rez life sucks so hard, why do they stay?

"If that poor hungry child doesn't like his situation, why doesn't he go somewhere else?"

Things aren't that simple.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

So much cringe in this thread.

[Zioneer]

Well maybe if Natives placed more value as a culture on education and not being trash this wouldn't be a problem. And yes I would say the same for poor whites in the Southeast before you predictably try to play that card.

Still bigoted, but its nice that you're expanding your targets.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Well maybe if Natives placed more value as a culture on education and not being trash this wouldn't be a problem. And yes I would say the same for poor whites in the Southeast before you predictably try to play that card.

Cory, in some ways I'm probably about as hate-filled and unhappy with the world as you are, but I at least know that that isn't a good thing.