Opinion of Fatah

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Your land? It's not your land and it's not Fatahs. By calling it your land you're making the same divisive argument that lots of Muslims make. Your land is in Europe! This is the reason people have been killing each other over there for thousands of years.

Priceless, Americans telling me what's my land and what's not. Love the goysplaining. But of course it has always been my land and I don't care if you find that to be "divisive" or if it offends your precious feelings -- or Muslims', for that matter. But maybe you could go back to Europe?

How is it your land, and not the palestinians?

I did not say it is not their land. It does not have to be a zero-sum game and the fact that it is generally presented as such causes many of the problems we have. However, it is certainly the Jewish land. We are indigenous to it, and the fact that it was stolen from us does not mean it is not ours anymore.

does that mean pomerania and silesia are german land? or that california, texas, and everything in between are mexican land?

[DavidB.]

If you weren't born in Israel and don't live there now, it's not your land. It's pretty simple.

You really think the whole world works like America, don't you?

[Intell]

If you weren't born in Israel and don't live there now, it's not your land. It's pretty simple.

You really think the whole world works like America, don't you?

The Palestinian territory might ancestrally be your land, but by current situation, it is the home for much more Palestinianian people, that the Israeli government have invade and started settlements on their land.

[DavidB.]

If you weren't born in Israel and don't live there now, it's not your land. It's pretty simple.

You really think the whole world works like America, don't you?

The Palestinian territory might ancestrally be your land, but by current situation, it is the home for much more Palestinianian people, that the Israeli government have invade and started settlements on their land.

If you really adhere to the bizarre idea that a country should only be inhabited by one people, and all other people who engage in normal activities, such as building houses and schools, are "invaders", then I do not think I am the one holding disturbing ideas. Following your own logic, you should probably leave Australia too, especially considering the fact that Jews, at least, are indigenous to the land of Israel.

does that mean pomerania and silesia are german land? or that california, texas, and everything in between are mexican land?

Afaik "Mexican" is hardly a useful term when describing indigeneity, but I surely advocate Native Americans' right to live in their ancestral land, even if they ended up on the Mexican side of the modern border. I also think Germans with ancestors in Pomerania and Silesia should be able to live there, although I wouldn't say the "German people" are indigenous to Pomerania and Silesia because I don't think it reflects the way people self-identified when these areas were more German (but I don't know much about these regions' history). Anyway there's no problem here, because all Germans can now move there.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

so what's your definition of indigeneity, then? after all, palestinians have been living in the area for well over a millennium

[DavidB.]

so what's your definition of indigeneity, then? after all, palestinians have been living in the area for well over a millennium

Well, let's simply use the UN definition.

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It is easy to read both the Jewish and the Palestinian narrative in this definition, and that's, of course, a big part of the problem -- but it's only a big part of the problem if one thinks in terms of a zero-sum logic in which only one people can live in/rule the land. I reject that idea because it will only bring us more bloodshed. Instead, a consociational solution needs to be found in which both national communities can rule themselves while making joint decisions on intercommunal affairs and foreign policy on a federal level, with both national communities having veto power.

[Intell]

If you weren't born in Israel and don't live there now, it's not your land. It's pretty simple.

You really think the whole world works like America, don't you?

The Palestinian territory might ancestrally be your land, but by current situation, it is the home for much more Palestinianian people, that the Israeli government have invade and started settlements on their land.

If you really adhere to the bizarre idea that a country should only be inhabited by one people, and all other people who engage in normal activities, such as building houses and schools, are "invaders", then I do not think I am the one holding disturbing ideas. Following your own logic, you should probably leave Australia too, especially considering the fact that Jews, at least, are indigenous to the land of Israel.

No, but you said murderers of my people and colonizers of my land, which is what Israel is doing by forcefully, and with military supremacy taking over Palestinian Land, displacing Palestinian people, with their land shrinking every day, from the 1947/1967 UN partition plan. Of course you can live there, within the Palestinian territory, with the Palestinian government, but you cannot go into another country, with force and make it Israeli.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

so what's your definition of indigeneity, then? after all, palestinians have been living in the area for well over a millennium

Well, let's simply use the UN definition.

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Added in 1986:

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It is easy to read both the Jewish and the Palestinian narrative in this definition, and that's, of course, a big part of the problem -- but it's only a big part of the problem if one thinks in terms of a zero-sum logic in which only one people can live in/rule the land. I reject that idea because it will only bring us more bloodshed. Instead, a consociational solution needs to be found in which both national communities can rule themselves while making joint decisions on intercommunal affairs and foreign policy on a federal level, with both national communities having veto power.

that is, of course, wildly contrary to the views of just about every group you support

[DavidB.]

that is, of course, wildly contrary to the views of just about every group you support

I don't think you are an expert on what I do and do not support.

No, but you said murderers of my people and colonizers of my land, which is what Israel is doing by forcefully, and with military supremacy taking over Palestinian Land, displacing Palestinian people, with their land shrinking every day, from the 1947/1967 UN partition plan. Of course you can live there, within the Palestinian territory, with the Palestinian government, but you cannot go into another country, with force and make it Israeli.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

so what's your definition of indigeneity, then? after all, palestinians have been living in the area for well over a millennium

Well, let's simply use the UN definition.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Added in 1986:

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It is easy to read both the Jewish and the Palestinian narrative in this definition, and that's, of course, a big part of the problem -- but it's only a big part of the problem if one thinks in terms of a zero-sum logic in which only one people can live in/rule the land. I reject that idea because it will only bring us more bloodshed. Instead, a consociational solution needs to be found in which both national communities can rule themselves while making joint decisions on intercommunal affairs and foreign policy on a federal level, with both national communities having veto power.

So, basically, something similar to what like Bosnia has?

[DavidB.]

So, basically, something similar to what like Bosnia has?

Yes, but with an important exception: Bosnia's consociationalism is territorially based. If you live in the Serbian part, I don't think you can just pack up and move to the Bosniak part, although I'm no expert on this. Instead, both national communities should rule themselves on a non-territorial basis. If the West is to become officially or unofficially Jewish and the East is to become officially or unofficially Palestinian, you create the impression that these communities are trying to "steal" this land and make it theirs, which will cause problems. Instead, everyone should have the right to set up communities anywhere in the land, with the normal exceptions related to the preservation of nature, the environment etc.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So, basically, something similar to what like Bosnia has?

Yes, but with an important exception: Bosnia's consociationalism is territorially based. If you live in the Serbian part, I don't think you can just pack up and move to the Bosniak part, although I'm no expert on this. Instead, both national communities should rule themselves on a non-territorial basis. If the West is to become officially or unofficially Jewish and the East is to become officially or unofficially Palestinian, you create the impression that these communities are trying to "steal" this land and make it theirs, which will cause problems. Instead, everyone should have the right to set up communities anywhere in the land, with the normal exceptions related to the preservation of nature, the environment etc.

Sounds reasonable.
Would people would registered as a member of one group or the other? And once registered, they would be able to vote in elections for said authority?

[DavidB.]

Sounds reasonable.
Would people would registered as a member of one group or the other? And once registered, they would be able to vote in elections for said authority?

Yes.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Sounds reasonable.
Would people would registered as a member of one group or the other? And once registered, they would be able to vote in elections for said authority?

Yes.

You know, that does sound like close to the ideal.

[RaphaelDLG]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and it prompted me to read up on the 1900s-1950s history of Jewish settlements in Israel and the long history of anti-semitism in Europe and the 21st century road map for peace etc, etc.  Very interesting and important stuff to know about.

I am still generally uncomfortable with any talk that enforces monolithic racial, ethnic, or cultural identities, as I believe that those are fictional social constructions that can be life-affirming and personally meaningful and can be real in terms of being very real experiences that deserve to be validated, but also often can oppressive/imprisoning and stoke illogical separation/prejudice/racism/keep us from achieving the pannational, panethnic identity as moral human beings and brothers and sisters that would like us to work towards.

Specifically, I'm referring to ideas like "this land belongs to my race" or "Israel should be a Jewish state."  (Neither of these are what DavidB said above and this post is not referring to him)

- Is there actually such a thing as a "black person," a "jewish person," or even a "woman?"  Is it possible to look at these people underneath a microscope and determine who they "are?" (No.)
- Are there objective behavioral/historical definitions of such "types" of people?  No, and monolithically enforcing or reinforcing ideas of identity can often be oppressive to people who do not fit cultural norms - the "woman" who is perceived as less womanly for being an engineer, for instance.
- The cause of racism and prejudice is people believing that such fictional monolithic social constructions of identity are actually true - ex that Jews are monolithically greedy, black folk are dumb, woman are mentally weak, etc - insert any other false abominable stereotype here.

I appreciate, however, that as a secular white alienated/isolated American with little sense of any enriching cultural identity/community ties who has also faced little-to-no discrimination in my life that that's very easy for me to be a big asshole and say - to talk about how we need to forget our cultural identities and histories.  Though they may be easy to unravel logically and often create problems/injustices, they are also tremendously significant and meaningful and potent for billions of people.  I'd like to see a fair world where people see each other fundamentally as brothers and sisters rather than members of different tribes, but cultural identities aren't going away and can be fine if we have a care for each others' humanity and contingency.  I also come from a country that has of course not lived up to my ideals.

I think that Israel is a great place that I'd like to visit and the United States could learn a lot from.  I feel like the Netanyahu govt is very disingenuous and not interested in peace with their settlement policies.  I feel like you have to forgive the Israelis for being so afraid like we Americans are when they have seen horrific examples of terrorism.  I feel like there are a lot of disingenuous actors on the Palestinian side.  I feel like it's understandable for Palestinians to feel angry but an asymmetric terrorist approach is not only obviously immoral it is politically way less effective than a civil disobedience approach.  I feel like there are still frightening levels of islamophobia and anti-semitism throughout even "enlightened" western countries.

Blah blah blah I'll stop talking and being a naive young white secular american now.

[Intell]

that is, of course, wildly contrary to the views of just about every group you support

I don't think you are an expert on what I do and do not support.

No, but you said murderers of my people and colonizers of my land, which is what Israel is doing by forcefully, and with military supremacy taking over Palestinian Land, displacing Palestinian people, with their land shrinking every day, from the 1947/1967 UN partition plan. Of course you can live there, within the Palestinian territory, with the Palestinian government, but you cannot go into another country, with force and make it Israeli.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

My point is that Fatah, rightfully or wrongly, is fighting to claim back land that has been taken away from them, by the Israeli government, in which the Palestinian land is much smaller than the 1967 partition.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Green line certainly has the right to think the way he does too though, so there's that.

He does, but having the right to think X and X being a cogent or correct or defensible belief are not always equivalent.

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

FF, Jews belong to Eastern Poland/Western Belarus/Soviet Union - not Christian Holy Land.

[Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy]

They're the lesser evil, but they are still pretty far from being FFs

[DavidB.]

My point is that Fatah, rightfully or wrongly, is fighting to claim back land that has been taken away from them, by the Israeli government, in which the Palestinian land is much smaller than the 1967 partition.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

My understanding is that 'Fatah' is a shell company used to transfer stolen aid money to Panama.

[Lurker]

that is, of course, wildly contrary to the views of just about every group you support

I don't think you are an expert on what I do and do not support.

Haven't you said before that you're a supporter of Jewish Home?

[Arturo Belano]

goysplaining

I'll admit that this made me chuckle.

[YaBoyNY]

goysplaining

I'll admit that this made me chuckle.

Same, but then I remembered that there are actually Jews who talk like this and fully believe it.

[SATW]

FF, Jews belong to Eastern Poland/Western Belarus/Soviet Union - not Christian Holy Land.

I hate Bulls**t statements like this because you know it's not even close to being true. You say this now after decades of discrimination and hatred pushed us out (and this is even post-holocaust).

Also, there wouldn't be a christian holy land without a Jewish holy land, but continue on with your babble...clearly most of the forum agrees with the general gist of your "logic."