Northern Regional Committee discussion thread
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Poirot
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« on: May 26, 2016, 05:17:35 PM »
« edited: May 26, 2016, 09:52:42 PM by Poirot »

This is a thread for comments, suggestions and opinions by the public about the work of the new Mideast-Northeast regional constitutional committee.

For example both regions use the Single Transferable vote method in elections. If there is someone proposing a different method, the person could explain a new method to the public here (and maybe make a formal proposal in the official thread of the committee when it is set up).
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Poirot
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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2016, 06:33:44 PM »

For elections to the Senate, I would specify that it must be a public vote (not the assembly voting) so voters have the right to directly choose who will represent them.

I was looking at the Mideast constitution on the wiki and it seems the Governor appoint someone if there is a vacancy. The Northeast has a special election if there are more than three weeks remaining. I always prefer the public choose when it's possible (like holding a special election two weeks before the regular election).

The name of the region should be geographic/directional. This is descriptive and easy to know in what area on the map it is located. The ConCon chose not to decide anything so there could be no uniformity. We could have a region with an animal male, one with a former Atlasian and one with a body of water.


The date of the regional elections. The Northeast uses the same months as the federal elections. Mideast seems to use the off months. Using the same months might have a higher turnout but with a big number House, the assembly election campaigns might be lost in that jungle.

Depending on when federal officials swear in after an election, I would study if it would be practical to have regional elections in the off months. If it allows a smooth transition from regional office to federal office. For example, after a federal election a representative is nominated to Cabinet or got elected to the House. If when they resign to take the new jobs there are only two weeks left before a regional election maybe we could skip special elections due to that. The risk is it produces elections every month and could lead to voter's fatigue.

The two regions don't have the same day for candidacy declaration deadlines. One is Tuesday, the other Wednesday.

The Northeast has a 5 members assembly if there are more candidates, otherwise it is 3. I think Mideast is five. I believe a 5 person assembly is more fun. Not everyone has the same activity level so if you have a 3 person assembly and one is absent, you have a dialogue between two people and everything relies on those two to keep the assembly alive. The problem might be to fill five seats. Turnout in elections and activity levels are down. Nyman has more offices than before. I thought consolidation would make regions more active and strong but they might face the same problem of losing elected officials to Nyman and having difficulty filling regional offices.

Both regions have a possible oveeride of Governor's veto but don't use the same number for the override (4/5 and 2/3).

The Mideast has one budet per year while the Northeast has one per Governor's term. It depends how much people enjoy debating budgets. The Notheast lets every Govenor a chance to present a budget. In the Mideast if you're not Governor at the right time of the year you don't have that chance.
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Poirot
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2016, 07:05:45 PM »

Another difference between the two former regions is legislation passed by the assembly becomes law after a week if the Governor takes no action. In the Mideast it's after 5 days.

There are different standards for expulsion of the assembly due to inactivity.

The Mideast requires the Governor to make an address to the citizens.

The Northeast has a consecutive two term limit for Governor. Not sure if Mideast has one.

The Mideast has a residency requirement for Governor that is 30 days at the time of inauguration. I like that you can't just arrive before the election and lead the region.
Depending if the region has fixed hours election or has flexibile hours, the residency requirement could be 2 or 3 weeks before the election.

The Mideast starts election on day but not at a specific hour. The Northeast has a specific hour to start the vote. The disadvantge with fixed hour is the election officer might have to post the voting booth before time because he won't be there at the exact minute. That could lead to some citizens voting before the stated time. If voters post a ballot before time I belive they should be allowed to revote and not have the vote automatically invalidated. It must be upsetting for a new voter to see his vote thrown away because the booth was posted but not officially open.

For the position of Lieutenant Governor, in the Northeast it's the choice of the Governor among the representatives in the assembly. In the Mideast it's a separate office (if their wiki page is up to date). I don't think for the moment we can afford a Lieutenant Governor that is not a representative.

The Northeast has a section on a Cabinet in the regional constitution. I think it's good to have Cabinet roles if citizens want to have that role because they want to get involved but they don't have much time or they are new or they have a specific interest. If we want a constitution that is not too long maybe the Cabinet could go in legislation instead.   
 
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2016, 07:23:22 PM »

Thanks for setting up this thread, Poirot! You might want to rename it "Northern Regional Committee," as parts of the Mideast are being consolidated into the new Southern Region.

For elections to the Senate, I would specify that it must be a public vote (not the assembly voting) so voters have the right to directly choose who will represent them.
I agree completely. Hopefully, there won't be significant disagreement over this matter.

The name of the region should be geographic/directional. This is descriptive and easy to know in what area on the map it is located. The ConCon chose not to decide anything so there could be no uniformity.
What's wrong with that? This is Atlasia, not Prussia (Wink) - I don't think there's anything wrong with having creative or original names for the Regions, as long as we're responsible about it and avoid naming ourselves the "Mozzarella Free State" (or something of that nature).

The date of the regional elections. The Northeast uses the same months as the federal elections. Mideast seems to use the off months. Using the same months might have a higher turnout but with a big number House, the assembly election campaigns might be lost in that jungle.

Depending on when federal officials swear in after an election, I would study if it would be practical to have regional elections in the off months. If it allows a smooth transition from regional office to federal office. For example, after a federal election a representative is nominated to Cabinet or got elected to the House. If when they resign to take the new jobs there are only two weeks left before a regional election maybe we could skip special elections due to that. The risk is it produces elections every month and could lead to voter's fatigue.
Good point. Putting Regional elections on the same schedule as the feds might also make it harder to find candidates for Assembly. I haven't seen any evidence of voter fatigue in the Mideast - I mean, this is an elections game, it's why we come here. I also agree that, if we're going with the off-month system, it makes sense to abandon the special election system to avoid having the voting booth be constantly open.

The Northeast has a 5 members assembly if there are more candidates, otherwise it is 3. I think Mideast is five. I believe a 5 person assembly is more fun. Not everyone has the same activity level so if you have a 3 person assembly and one is absent, you have a dialogue between two people and everything relies on those two to keep the assembly alive. The problem might be to fill five seats. Turnout in elections and activity levels are down. Nyman has more offices than before. I thought consolidation would make regions more active and strong but they might face the same problem of losing elected officials to Nyman and having difficulty filling regional offices.
Actually, the Mideast has a three-member Assembly now (our Constitution has not been updated to reflect this change). I am firmly in favor of carrying over the Northeast's system - that is, the number of seats fluctuates depending on the number of candidates who ran in the last election (three if fewer than five candidates were on the ballot, five otherwise). It's just not a good idea to shackle the Region to a five-member legislature if there's not enough interest to fill all the seats. Real-life legislatures expand as the population expands; it's only logical to tie the size of our own legislatures to the Atlasian equivalent of population growth: rising activity.

As I explained when the Mideast made the switch from five to three seats, Atlasia is an elections game, and elections thrive on competition. An election in which five candidate run for five seats and everybody gets elected is boring and contributes to voter apathy and inactivity. If you want to get people involved, you need to raise the stakes.

In the end, we'll probably end up with a five man legislature regardless, but I think having a built-in mechanism to respond to a drop in activity is wise, especially given all that we've seen in the past year.

Both regions have a possible oveeride of Governor's veto but don't use the same number for the override (4/5 and 2/3).
It actually works out to be the same number, assuming you have a five-member legislature.

The Mideast has one budet per year while the Northeast has one per Governor's term. It depends how much people enjoy debating budgets. The Notheast lets every Govenor a chance to present a budget. In the Mideast if you're not Governor at the right time of the year you don't have that chance.
One per year makes the most sense, in my opinion. That's how real life works, and it's the model used by the federal government.

I was Speaker of the Mideast Assembly when the Region wrote our last budget. It was a long, time-consuming process, and were we to repeat it every four months, the Assembly would have time for little else.

The Mideast requires the Governor to make an address to the citizens.
This was one of my first initiatives as a Mideast representative - sadly, it doesn't seem that most governors have taken note.

The Northeast has a consecutive two term limit for Governor. Not sure if Mideast has one.
Term limits are a good idea in real life and a very, very bad idea in Atlasia - as hard as it is to find interested candidates for office, we should not be forcibly retiring anyone who has proven themselves to have the confidence of the people on two occasions.

The Mideast starts election on day but not at a specific hour. The Northeast has a specific hour to start the vote. The disadvantge with fixed hour is the election officer might have to post the voting booth before time because he won't be there at the exact minute. That could lead to some citizens voting before the stated time. If voters post a ballot before time I belive they should be allowed to revote and not have the vote automatically invalidated. It must be upsetting for a new voter to see his vote thrown away because the booth was posted but not officially open.
I think the Northeast does it best and agree with your point about reposting ballots.

For the position of Lieutenant Governor, in the Northeast it's the choice of the Governor among the representatives in the assembly. In the Mideast it's a separate office (if their wiki page is up to date). I don't think for the moment we can afford a Lieutenant Governor that is not a representative.
It is not. I absolutely agree with Poirot here - the Northeast system is the best one.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2016, 07:28:18 PM »

personally i think we should ask ourselves the question if we even want to stay with the standard assembly+governor system to begin with Tongue

and for the name i'd suggest either "union"/"the union region" or "laurentia"
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cinyc
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2016, 01:33:35 PM »

I put up a Northeast Regional Committee thread on the Regional Government board here:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=237585.0

First, we need to set the ground rules for the committee's work.  Then, we need to promptly organize the Senate elections (presumably next weekend).  Finally, we need to work on the constitution.  Hopefully, we can proceed rather quickly.
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Poirot
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2016, 04:24:55 PM »

personally i think we should ask ourselves the question if we even want to stay with the standard assembly+governor system to begin with Tongue

Would that be like universal legislature in which every citizen can propose legislation and every citizen vote on it ?

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Poirot
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2016, 05:15:07 PM »

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To have some coherence in the names. We could have three regions named Maple, Lilliput and Ban Ki moon.

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Some citizens didn't like getting bothered by pms for Atlasia elections. They would get them every month. I still like special elections when officeholders leave early in the mandate. My point was the off month elections could solve the problem of vacancies created by taking jobs in Nyman if the timing is right (swearing in for federal offices is close enough to the regional election). It depends when the federal official swear in, the haering for Cabinet nomination ends and the date of the regional election.

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I think it's candidates on the ballot for the current election. The committee can discuss the different options.

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Compeition brings an exciting element. However it is also a game. Citizens who want to play and contribute must have the chance to participate. A new player who wants to be in regional assembly who is not elected because there are only 3 seats and he finished 5th could try again but if loses again might give up. Same thing for someone not in a big party. Regional assembly is usually where people get integrated to the game. I'm happy to see 5 citizens wanting to play a role get elected even if there is no "competition". I don't enjoy seeing a candidate lose an election because it was fun to have competition.

If the region ends up always getting 3 member assembly it would be a big failure of consolidation. It is supposed to make regions more active, with more people. The number of regions is reduced, the assembly size shrinks while there are more offices in Nyman than before

I don't know if 3 member assembly have been successful. I don't believe in 3 member legislative body. If one person doesn't contribute or is not active it's totally not interesting. It's already not enjoyable to be in a 5 member assembly when 2 are absent.

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Term limits can be a good idea in a game. Maybe there are people who wish to be Governor but if a popular Governor stays there for a year, it would be good to give someone else a chance. There could be some limit on consecutive terms or allow to pass the consecutive term limit if there are no other candidates.       
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Leinad
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2016, 05:34:47 PM »

personally i think we should ask ourselves the question if we even want to stay with the standard assembly+governor system to begin with Tongue

Would that be like universal legislature in which every citizen can propose legislation and every citizen vote on it ?

Hmmm...a region could, theoretically, just not have a Governor--have, say, a 5- or 7-member "Parliament" that elects a "Prime Minister" to act as the head of government for the region. The fun thing about this is we can think outside the box.
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DKrol
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2016, 06:57:20 PM »

Leinad's idea isn't too bad. What if we make the North a Parliamentary Republic?

The Governor, or some other title, would be popularly elected but hold very little power, mostly a ceremonial position - like the President of Germany. The legislature could be a little larger and elect a Prime Minister or a Chancellor to serve as the head of government.

Depending on the size of the legislature, the PM/Chancellor could also serve as the Speaker and run to the day-to-day legislature or it could be a separate position, perhaps elected by the Governor.

The Northern Parliamentary Republic could be a fun idea but, on the other hand, I don't see why we need to break the mold on the regional government.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2016, 07:08:41 PM »

Leinad's idea isn't too bad. What if we make the North a Parliamentary Republic?

The Governor, or some other title, would be popularly elected but hold very little power, mostly a ceremonial position - like the President of Germany. The legislature could be a little larger and elect a Prime Minister or a Chancellor to serve as the head of government.

Depending on the size of the legislature, the PM/Chancellor could also serve as the Speaker and run to the day-to-day legislature or it could be a separate position, perhaps elected by the Governor.

The Northern Parliamentary Republic could be a fun idea but, on the other hand, I don't see why we need to break the mold on the regional government.
I was thinking a three man Senate and the rest, House of Representatives, just like what our upcoming Republic is. But the ideas presented are also worth a try.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2016, 08:11:40 AM »

a very-out-of-the-box idea i wanted to float is a weighted universal legislature.

at each election, citisens would write-in a ranked list of candidates, and the votes in the legislature would be weighted accordingly.

some examples:

- if everyone wrote in themselves, with no lower preferences, the result would be equivalent to a normal universal legislature.

- if the results were like this:
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and all three people voted on a bill, cinyc's and truman's votes would count for 3 each and rgn's would count for 1. but if rgn didn't vote, truman's vote would count for 4, and so on.

the advantage of such a system is that activity requirements are unnecessary and that a balance can be struck between citisen involvement and not overburdening uninterested citisens.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2016, 10:01:30 AM »

I will be presenting my idea
Governor - still the same functions as the Governor of the Northeast/Mideast. Four month term

Organizing Committee (or the Senate) - a three man body who will have the final say on the passage of the bills passed on the House of Representatives. Elected by STV. One or two will be elected per election, a four month term, staggered election. For gubernatorial election, one will be elected. For a midterm, two. For example, basing from the current calendar of the Northeast.
February - 1
April - 2
June - 1
August - 2
October - 1
December - 2

House of the Representatives - a three to seven man legislature where bills will first pass here before submitted to the Senate, then to the governor for the final approval. Two month term. Elected by STV



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Poirot
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2016, 09:40:37 AM »

Don't forget to propose your ideas in the official committee thread when it is time but I think it's good to express in advance so people can think about it for some time and not have to vote on something just after it was presented.

I will make the same comment again after reading this:
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For Nyman the ConCon chose a bicameral system which could also slows legislation process. It also increased the number of offices in Nyman.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2016, 09:44:59 AM »

Don't forget to propose your ideas in the official committee thread when it is time but I think it's good to express in advance so people can think about it for some time and not have to vote on something just after it was presented.

I will make the same comment again after reading this:
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For Nyman the ConCon chose a bicameral system which could also slows legislation process. It also increased the number of offices in Nyman.
It will indeed slow down the legislation. But I think a three man senate then a five (or three) man HoR will not increase the number of offices
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Angrie
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2016, 10:59:36 AM »

It will indeed slow down the legislation. But I think a three man senate then a five (or three) man HoR will not increase the number of offices

Man??
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Angrie
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2016, 11:02:25 AM »

Leinad's idea isn't too bad. What if we make the North a Parliamentary Republic?

The Governor, or some other title, would be popularly elected but hold very little power, mostly a ceremonial position - like the President of Germany. The legislature could be a little larger and elect a Prime Minister or a Chancellor to serve as the head of government.

Depending on the size of the legislature, the PM/Chancellor could also serve as the Speaker and run to the day-to-day legislature or it could be a separate position, perhaps elected by the Governor.

The Northern Parliamentary Republic could be a fun idea but, on the other hand, I don't see why we need to break the mold on the regional government.

I guess I don't really have a vote here yet, but my preference would be for a parliamentary system, or else for a unicameral legislature. I explain a bit more why here.

Sometimes right wing policies will be enacted, sometimes left wing policies will be enacted. But at least coherent policies will be enacted in response to problems that arise, rather than letting problems fester with no action taken.

The people could then judge policies based on whether or not they like how they work in practice, on the basis of some actual knowledge. When policies don't work, or people don't like them, they can be repealed under a parliamentary system/unicameral legislature and something new can be tried. Over the long run, as long as elections have some positive selection effect, better policies will evolutionarily emerge.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2016, 11:33:54 AM »

It will indeed slow down the legislation. But I think a three man senate then a five (or three) man HoR will not increase the number of offices

Man??

Different take I guess. It's not about gender or something
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Enduro
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2016, 05:32:53 PM »

Why not keep a 5 seat assembly, and make the lieutenant governor a separate position? Like in real life Virginia. We'd have a Governor/Lieutinant Governor that acts like President/Vice President of the region; except they'd be elected separately.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2016, 06:35:30 PM »

Why not keep a 5 seat assembly, and make the lieutenant governor a separate position? Like in real life Virginia. We'd have a Governor/Lieutinant Governor that acts like President/Vice President of the region; except they'd be elected separately.

the difficulty, of course, is making the lieutenant governorship a meaningful position. Tongue
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cinyc
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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2016, 10:16:50 PM »

Why not keep a 5 seat assembly, and make the lieutenant governor a separate position? Like in real life Virginia. We'd have a Governor/Lieutinant Governor that acts like President/Vice President of the region; except they'd be elected separately.

the difficulty, of course, is making the lieutenant governorship a meaningful position. Tongue

We can give the Lt. Governor all the bad chores, like updating the wiki and running elections, since we can't have a CJO that will do so and giving election-running powers to an appointed-for-life Associate Justice in Nyman is a recipe for disaster.

I prefer to have the Lt. Governor come from the Assembly, like in the Northeast, though.  I don't want to create too many offices.
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Enduro
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2016, 01:41:57 PM »

Why not keep a 5 seat assembly, and make the lieutenant governor a separate position? Like in real life Virginia. We'd have a Governor/Lieutinant Governor that acts like President/Vice President of the region; except they'd be elected separately.

the difficulty, of course, is making the lieutenant governorship a meaningful position. Tongue

We can give the Lt. Governor all the bad chores, like updating the wiki and running elections, since we can't have a CJO that will do so and giving election-running powers to an appointed-for-life Associate Justice in Nyman is a recipe for disaster.

I prefer to have the Lt. Governor come from the Assembly, like in the Northeast, though.  I don't want to create too many offices.

My proposal would only create 1 new office.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2016, 09:21:19 PM »

The committee has passed the following elections bill:

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This bill provides for the democratic election of both of our Region's Senators, as well as for referendums on the first and second amendments to the Constitution. Per Section 3, candidates for Senate have until 12:00 AM (EST) on Thursday to declare.
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2016, 09:58:32 PM »

Personally, I'd rather we not have an Lt.G and maybe give Wiki responsibilities to the Speaker and make them first in the succession line (followed by the most senior Assembly member), which I believe we ended up doing two or so years ago.  The Lt.G position just isn't sexy enough for people to take it on willingly.

I also think five is an ideal number for the Assembly.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2016, 04:53:22 PM »

i'm running a poll on the two fundamental questions we're looking at right now (although you shouldn't hesitate to leave comments on other issues as well!)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18J9UinWb2879DeFUWz4uz7rPfi1CjZXldGubkbe74Zc/viewform
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