Is opposing "cultural appropriation" actually a far right position?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

What BRTD doesn't recognize about 'culture'--I alluded to this in the thread for a poll I made in Forum Community earlier today--is that it's a broader and in many (even, I daresay, most) respects way more innocuous category, in the American context, than he thinks it is. I doubt more conservatives than liberals would be sad about an Italian-American family losing nonna's baccalà campagnolo recipe and deciding to just start having hamburgers for Christmas Eve dinner instead. I doubt more conservatives than liberals would be sad about an Irish-American family slowly flipping from considering 'damn' a stronger curse word than '[Inks]' to the other way around. I don't know if more conservatives than liberals would be sad about a Jewish family ceasing to observe Shabbat, but that's just because left-antisemitism is such a growing problem these days. Yes, American liberals obviously advocate analyzing and strength-testing cultural traditions against more or less abstracted moral principles, but that's true of most ideologies other than Herderian traditionalist conservatism. People who care about their cultures are generally willing to critique them and have them evolve and develop too, it's just that their thresholds and standards for certain things are different than those of BRTD's set. Outright hostility to heritable culture as a concept is, in fact, in the context of contemporary politics seen through a world lens, a vulgar-Maoist position.

Advocating the indiscriminate subordination of all non-American or pre-American cultural folkways and customs into a non-heritable and past-blind American whiteness is, additionally, a strongly nationalistic attitude.

[RaphaelDLG]

I'm totally on board with stuff like blackface and the Washington redskins and people dressing up like Indian chiefs getting called out for being glib and offensive...

But this latest trend of Tumblr liberals flipping out about people growing afros or cooking rice is fascist and ridiculous in the way it ruthlessly segregates people into and out of phony, socially constructed, segregated monolithic fence like "cultures"

[GameofChance]

However you like to define right and left, I think it's pretty clear that "far right" in this case is intended to no-true-scotsman the issue onto conservatives instead of "real" liberals because we can obviously do no wrong.

It is certainly reactionary and absolutely runs counter to what liberals ought to stand for, though, and it is something our side of the coin should be ashamed of.

[dax00]

No, it's a stance of the regressive left.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What BRTD doesn't recognize about 'culture'--I alluded to this in the thread for a poll I made in Forum Community earlier today--is that it's a broader and in many (even, I daresay, most) respects way more innocuous category, in the American context, than he thinks it is. I doubt more conservatives than liberals would be sad about an Italian-American family losing nonna's baccalà campagnolo recipe and deciding to just start having hamburgers for Christmas Eve dinner instead.

Really? I bet that would cause a much bigger fuss on State Island than in Park Slope or the Lower East Side.

I doubt more conservatives than liberals would be sad about an Irish-American family slowly flipping from considering 'damn' a stronger curse word than '[Inks]' to the other way around.

I honestly doubt anyone would care about that. For the record I've never even heard of anyone who has this view.

I don't know if more conservatives than liberals would be sad about a Jewish family ceasing to observe Shabbat, but that's just because left-antisemitism is such a growing problem these days.

Blaming that only on anti-Semitism is pretty shallow. How many liberals, especially secular liberals, would be upset about a Jewish friend no longer observing Shabat and going out for drinks with them Friday night and early Saturday evening? Actually the amount of liberals who would care, including secular ethnic Jewish liberals is probably pretty close to zero. Yet I can see many conservatives being upset at that.

Yes, American liberals obviously advocate analyzing and strength-testing cultural traditions against more or less abstracted moral principles, but that's true of most ideologies other than Herderian traditionalist conservatism. People who care about their cultures are generally willing to critique them and have them evolve and develop too, it's just that their thresholds and standards for certain things are different than those of BRTD's set. Outright hostility to heritable culture as a concept is, in fact, in the context of contemporary politics seen through a world lens, a vulgar-Maoist position.

I've mentioned before that my whole scene and subculture is actually pretty big on Maoist-style recruitment and indoctrination tactics.

But anyway here is my main point here: The least "cultured" whites are also the most liberal. For example I've established before that whites in Minneapolis are incredibly assimilated, whitebread and non-distinct. In Minneapolis, white is white. (I once gave Gully once of those "OMG how could you be so stupid to think Hispanic is a separate race on the Census!" talks for merely asking if there's a heavily Irish or Italian neighborhood in Minneapolis, because anyone familiar with the city knows how absurd that question is.) And hey guess what, Minneapolis whites are also hyper-liberal. And then look at whites in places like Seattle, Portland Denver, San Francisco, Madison, Austin and Washington, DC. Even whites in Des Moines are significantly well to the left of whites nationally. Now compare that to as mentioned Staten Island, or Mt. Greenwood, or South Boston or Northeast Philly, or any Russian part of NYC. And then consider that the whites in the liberal parts of those cities are basically just like the whites in the cities I mentioned above. The pattern is quite clear.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

It's not about politics -- look how culture oriented Libertas is in NYC. Because he is a good Italian liberal.

[RaphaelDLG]

Bottom line, complaining about cultural appropriation is not right wing because it's something done fundamentally by a I oppressed minority group

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BRTD, the comparisons you should be making are between all of the places you're mentioning and places like the white suburbs of Birmingham or DFW, not Staten Island and the Lower East Side or Minneapolis and Southie. I didn't, and wouldn't, deny that within and by the standards of white people in big cities people who care about and mourn the loss of non-Generic White American cultural traditions skew conservative, but I and, even now, most other Americans do not have boundaries of understanding and empathy that limit us to within and by the standards of white people in big cities.

I've mentioned before that my whole scene and subculture is actually pretty big on Maoist-style recruitment and indoctrination tactics.

Good God WHY?!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, the comparisons you should be making are between all of the places you're mentioning and places like the white suburbs of Birmingham or DFW, not Staten Island and the Lower East Side or Minneapolis and Southie. I didn't, and wouldn't, deny that within and by the standards of white people in big cities people who care about and mourn the loss of non-Generic White American cultural traditions skew conservative, but I and, even now, most other Americans do not have boundaries of understanding and empathy that limit us to within and by the standards of white people in big cities.

Well of course it differs amongst different areas. I just have a tough time seeing liberals anywhere caring about the sort of stuff you talk about. I mean seriously, what liberal would be saddened by someone no longer keeping Shabbat? For example: How many Jewish liberals actually do? And I doubt that stuff would upset your typical middle class Democratic voters in any Dem-leaning suburban areas. Or think about this: Think of the typical Bernie Sanders voter. Would they be bothered by any of that? I mean hell Bernie Sanders obviously doesn't keep Shabbat, so why would they care if anyone else does?

Also remember where I'm from. The conservative rural areas would be far more big on preserving culture. Your average Democrat voter in central Fargo isn't going to care in the slightest about the decline of the German language in south central North Dakota and all those German and Norwegian cultural organizations are obviously formed by people who seem likely to be Republicans.

I've mentioned before that my whole scene and subculture is actually pretty big on Maoist-style recruitment and indoctrination tactics.

Good God WHY?!

More of a co-discovery thing and realization that sort of stuff is pretty effective. It's not like anyone is looking toward Mao for inspiration.

But actually the main point here is that people really into the scene tend not to care about their ethnic identity or traditions. And it makes sense too. Do you seriously think someone of Italian ancestry who attended Dude Fest would see themselves as more similar to the people on that stupid Jersey Shore show than the other (mostly whitebread Midwestern) people at Dude Fest?

[RINO Tom]

If BRTD hasn't had a specific real life person whom he has specifically classified as meeting his (made up) definition of liberal, it's not a liberal thing to say/think.  Fact!

My Republican friends love craft beer, getting laid and going boating; these are now Republican activities.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BRTD, all I'm trying to impress upon you is that 'all conservative, all the time' is a way more common (in this country) way of understanding the world than 'all liberal, all the time', and not one with any more tolerance for expressions of cultural heritage that deviate from its own preferred nondescript white American norm. I do also, in fact, know a number of Jewish liberals who are proud of being Jewish and deeply invested in the practice of Judaism and in learning about and appreciating Jewish art, literature, and cuisine.

Your use of Jersey Shore as a generalized example of Italian-American culture is incredibly offensive but I'll just leave it alone.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I love studying/celebrating Norwegian culture and learning the language for fun and, in large part, because it is part of my heritage.  I guess I'm a far-right Republican now.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I love studying/celebrating Norwegian culture and learning the language for fun and, in large part, because it is part of my heritage.  I guess I'm a far-right Republican now.

Actually the anti-"cultural appropriation"/far right position would be holding that it would be wrong for anyone not of Norwegian heritage to study the language. And seeing as how there are people who think it's wrong to eat at ethnic restaurants if you're not of that ethnicity it's not that far fetched.

BRTD, all I'm trying to impress upon you is that 'all conservative, all the time' is a way more common (in this country) way of understanding the world than 'all liberal, all the time', and not one with any more tolerance for expressions of cultural heritage that deviate from its own preferred nondescript white American norm. I do also, in fact, know a number of Jewish liberals who are proud of being Jewish and deeply invested in the practice of Judaism and in learning about and appreciating Jewish art, literature, and cuisine.

Your use of Jersey Shore as a generalized example of Italian-American culture is incredibly offensive but I'll just leave it alone.

And my point is that it's actually the conservatives who care more about preserving such things, "heritage not hate" in regards to a certain flag comes to mind. Also the last bit of your first paragraph has nothing to do with observing Sabbath. For the record I've never met a Jew in my life who observes Sabbath, it's a virtually entirely extinct practice in the Midwest.

But anyway, I think what you have to understand is the idea that ethnic cultures still existing and as a division amongst whites is a very alien concept to me. Check out this not exactly accurate but widely held beliefs about Minneapolis stereotypes, NONE of it has to deal with ethnic groups, at least amongst whites. Because there is no such division or segregation here. As noted above, the Jews here too are so assimilated none observe Sabbath, and I got into a weird debate on AAD about how supposedly even secular Jews will often shun tattoos, because I know per capita just as many Jews with them. They're basically almost entirely assimilated and just like any other white Minnesotan except they'll work on Christmas. It goes without saying how much difference people consider between German and Scandinavians (and where does that leave me as 50/50 mixed?) at that. You know how I've been talking about how I can't understand "cultural Catholicism" because it's such a weird concept and so alien to the way things work here? That's a part of this greater picture.

[RINO Tom]

I'm glad I can go to Minneapolis, have a blast and all together avoid BRTD's crowd (which he seems to think epitomizes all people in thid city of all cities).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Actually the anti-"cultural appropriation"/far right position would be holding that it would be wrong for anyone not of Norwegian heritage to study the language. And seeing as how there are people who think it's wrong to eat at ethnic restaurants if you're not of that ethnicity it's not that far fetched.

I don't think any of us are claiming that that's not batsh**t insane. I'm certainly not.

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They care more about preserving 'heritage' that fits into the 'all conservative, all the time' narrative, yes.

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Uh, part of being 'deeply invested in the practice of Judaism' is observing Shabbat so yes, it does have to do with that. I have one friend who when I met him was Reform and is now a Jewish atheist. He doesn't follow all the Shabbat rules but he doesn't do any work and tries to spend Friday nights focusing on his family obligations. Formerly he was so observant that he once harangued me and another friend for half an hour for taking advantage of his lapse of memory as to what day it was to get him to help us start a campfire (in our defense we had forgotten what day it was too. It was that kind of summer). The only time I drank at a party in undergrad was at a Purim celebration hosted by a Chabad rabbi.

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No, see, I get this, I'm just invested in trying to explain to you that the Northeast still does things differently. It's a truism that it's in many ways a very tradition-oriented part of the country despite how liberal it is. That truism is a truism for a reason.

[Stranger in a strange land]

Bottom line, complaining about cultural appropriation is not right wing because it's something done fundamentally by a I oppressed minority group

I just realized that SJWs use "Cultural Appropriation" analogously to how Neo-Nazis and the Alt-Right use the term "Cultural Marxism" and with much the same intent. And people who wear Blackface, wear Native American War Bonnet Costumes, or eat Taco Bowls on Cinco de Mayo aren't practicing Cultural Appropriation, they're practicing Offensive Racial Stereotyping, which is something completely different. Cultures borrowing and learning from one another has been going on since literally the beginning of humanity, and cultures have never been strictly segregated from one another as SJWs seem to want.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

they're practicing Offensive Racial Stereotyping, which is something completely different.

Ding ding ding. There's really no need for 'cultural appropriation' to exist conceptually outside of this.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

BRTD, how is saying "I admit this is based only on narrow and limited personal experience, but this is what I have and haven't seen, and that is relevant" in any way an argument of merit? What is a statement like that intended to demonstrate? Congratulations for Minnesota. Woo.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wouldn't call eating taco bowls on Cinco De Mayo itself to be offensive racial stereotyping, even the way Trump did (what he did was more pathetic and pitiful than actually offensive*), although plenty of actual offensive racial stereotyping does take place around that time.

*And as Alcon pointed out, the people handwringing and throwing a fit about that as if was truly offensive were giving him exactly the reaction he wanted, which is why any such stunts like in the future from Trump (and you know there will be more) should simply be responded to with mockery rather than that sort of thing.

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Uh, part of being 'deeply invested in the practice of Judaism' is observing Shabbat so yes, it does have to do with that. I have one friend who when I met him was Reform and is now a Jewish atheist. He doesn't follow all the Shabbat rules but he doesn't do any work and tries to spend Friday nights focusing on his family obligations. Formerly he was so observant that he once harangued me and another friend for half an hour for taking advantage of his lapse of memory as to what day it was to get him to help us start a campfire (in our defense we had forgotten what day it was too. It was that kind of summer). The only time I drank at a party in undergrad was at a Purim celebration hosted by a Chabad rabbi.

Holy f**k the Midwest is a way different place. I could tell that story to my Jewish friends and I'm sure they'd be just as shocked.

But actually I thought of the perfect analogy: Would any liberals be upset about a Muslim drinking alcohol?

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No, see, I get this, I'm just invested in trying to explain to you that the Northeast still does things differently. It's a truism that it's in many ways a very tradition-oriented part of the country despite how liberal it is. That truism is a truism for a reason.

See thing is based on what I have seen it's hard for me to see this as universal in the most liberal areas there, like I gave the example of Park Slope where I'm sure most people would have the same attitude as the people in Loring Park or Lyn-Lake in Minneapolis in regards to ethnic culture. It seems like it'd have to be pretty universal anywhere where Democrats win >80% of the white vote. Actually I'm wearing a mewithoutYou shirt now, even just reading their Wikipedia article should show you how connected they are to personal ethnic heritage, and that's Philadelphia.

And that's not even getting into the proto-SJWism in New Brunswick, NJ...as in the type of bands that include essays in their liner notes on their records about how they don't like that some local venues serve beer brands that have advertising campaigns that are degrading to women. Remember, this isn't some quick mention of it, this is a long multi-paragraph essay. And then of course tons of lyrics about how much society and culture sucks and how it promotes reactionary values and all that should be completely discarded.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

But actually I thought of the perfect analogy: Would any liberals be upset about a Muslim drinking alcohol?

Some might but you're right that most probably wouldn't. But I think this has more to do with perceptions of alcohol than perceptions of Islam. Obviously for you at least it does.

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The issue, BRTD, is that you're not comparing the most liberal areas to the more moderate/politically mixed areas to the most conservative areas. You're just comparing the most liberal areas to the more moderate/politically mixed areas plus a handful of insular minorities that happen to vote Republican for various reasons.

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The forum has established before how limited your understanding of New Brunswick is.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I can assure you that the most secular areas of New York still respect and regularly expect the irreligious Jews to uphold their traditions. Can't say for sure if it's the same in PA as I haven't encountered as many instances like that.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Worth noting also that there's a specific and, typically, immediately identifiable secular Jewish cultural identity in the Northeast.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I can assure you that the most secular areas of New York still respect and regularly expect the irreligious Jews to uphold their traditions. Can't say for sure if it's the same in PA as I haven't encountered as many instances like that.

That's pretty hypocritical.

*An ethnic Jew and a non-Jew are at a restaurant placing their orders*
Non-Jew: Hmmm, I think I'll have the bacon cheeseburger. I've heard it's good.
Ethnic Jew: Yeah I think I'll have the bacon cheeseburger as well.
*Non-Jew gives a very disapproving look*

To go back to my previous analogy, that'd be like me going into a bar, ordering a drink, and then a Somali woman in a hijab comes up next to me, also orders a drink, and I think to myself that it's horrible that she's violating her religion and going against her culture like that. Obviously I wouldn't, but how many liberals, or hell, people in general, actually would?

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

You are really struggling to understand the boundaries here. That would be something done jokingly. (For example, "when it's Chinese, it doesn't count" One tradition supercedes the other)

[RINO Tom]

BRTD, I literally LOL by myself thinking about how you are a real life person...