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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2016, 07:22:51 PM »

That is why I said before. You could give I don't five slots to the majority and two to the minority, or perhaps some other spread. Perhaps five and three. There are ways to make it work, so everyone is engaged and constantly pushing towards getting a majority, so that you balance involvement with differentiation in power so as to create that incentive to seek such constantly, producing more frequent competitive elections with more candidates.
How would the president fit into all of this? Would they use one of their party's slots, or would they get their own slot?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2016, 07:26:16 PM »

How is that in any way comparable to what is being proposed? You're comparing the spirit of something to the actual institutionalization of it. Huge difference, and not even really comparable: if by "establishing [a] partisan administration of the Senate", you mean "not letting Yankee continue to run the show as he saw fit for years and years by daring to elect someone else to the post (*gasp!*)", then sure.

Also, laughable that you think the Labor Senators ever voted in "lockstep" on virtually anything. There's a reason I stopped caring/trying to herd Senate legislation after awhile.

No. I took advantage of the slot rules to get TNF one more than he actually deserved under the clogging rule, and he wanted more. He always wanted more. TNF was a dishonest, self-righteous, egotistical narcissist. You PM him everything that was going on, and then he would crusade in public about being shut out of the process (This actually happened by the way). You give him an extra slot, he wanted all of them. His agenda was supreme, the only possible answer to anything, everybody else could just go get guillotined.

He wanted entire show to himself and he was perfectly willing to shut everyone else out. Other Senators realized this two. Three Senators threatened to resign if TNF ever got control of the Senate, including at least one Laborite. Yet, Labor always voted in lockstep in the actual vote to put him in charge. I did make a big mistake in not letting Franzl take over when he wanted to in late 2012. I was burned out by mid 2013, but by that point I was trapped.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2016, 07:28:24 PM »

That is why I said before. You could give I don't five slots to the majority and two to the minority, or perhaps some other spread. Perhaps five and three. There are ways to make it work, so everyone is engaged and constantly pushing towards getting a majority, so that you balance involvement with differentiation in power so as to create that incentive to seek such constantly, producing more frequent competitive elections with more candidates.
How would the president fit into all of this? Would they use one of their party's slots, or would they get their own slot?

That is something that could be considered either way. You could also have an Indy President at some point, which makes it difficult to do that based on party though.
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windjammer
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« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2016, 07:37:10 PM »

Setting aside the historical revisionism for a minute, I will deal with that in minute.


Truman and Blair are correct and like many things with mock parliament, they took things to the excess to express their dislike of the Atlasian way and ended up destroying themselves.

That is why I said before. You could give I don't five slots to the majority and two to the minority, or perhaps some other spread. Perhaps five and three. There are ways to make it work, so everyone is engaged and constantly pushing towards getting a majority, so that you balance involvement with differentiation in power so as to create that incentive to seek such constantly, producing more frequent competitive elections with more candidates.

Also, one thing to note is the theoretical power of indies and third parties. An indy or a third party can get to a seat pretty easily. Anyone who looks at the first election and sees that partisan 5 Feds, 4 Labor should note that CR scattered its votes and several Feds and Laborites won independent voters. A single candidate can unify that vote and get elected and he would almost certainly become the deciding vote on everything. Therefore rather being powerless, just the opposite, he now has a certain amount of leverage.

This is one major different vrom the old Senate, where partisan administration would have necessarily t-boned the third parties and indies because of the intersection of the election methods and the size of the chamber. One more reason why it was such a bad idea there.

There is a difference between theory and the results in the end.

I led the major party for a year last year with Griffin. And I can tell you this: swing voter isnt a thing. One party will have always a big structural advantage. Your partisan house will make things even worse because one party will always have his representatives second class citizens.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2016, 07:41:42 PM »

I don't see why on God's green earth either side would want such a thing. The Right's hubris over its newfound power apparently is inducing amnesia.

It was fine for three years when you had TNF on pedestal as if he was god's gift to the world. Your President's, your Senators, yourself were all marching in lockstep behind making him PPT and establishing his partisan administration of the Senate.

This has nothing to do with election wins or lossess.


I am following a three year-old blueprint from your Vice President!!!
It is funny you're saying that because if I recall correctly I did certify the PPT elections for you 3 years ago and I was forced to then certify the election to TNF because you were forced to withdraw the election for personal issues.
And anyway, yes, indeed TNF became PPT, but he didn't nuke the senate. Averroes indeed changed the rules, he simplified them. I disagreed with him about the elimination of the VP, but he didn't make the senate a partisan chamber. No senator had a higher priority.

Two years ago. It was July 2014, the tail end of the struggle. You tried to certify me and got sued for trying to avoid having to chose between me and TNF. I think he voted late or declared too late or something. He sued and you guys spent a month stuck in court. I don't remember who won the case, but anyway you ended up running the Senate yourself for a period, which I found preferable anyway. Granted, after August things get foggy because I lost my internet access. I do recall PPT TNF making declarations and trying to do stuff he had not the power to do, I do recall their being a tremandous outrage against him and it was tied in to the power bill, culminating in LAbor losing an At-Large seat and Lumine becoming PPT in September.

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How many times the senate control changed it when you were in the senate? Not often. And that's going to be the same thing for the House. Parties have an actual advantage, that was Labor before, now it is the Federalists, then it may be the Labor or an another thing again in the future. But elections are almost never competitive.

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It's me who stood alone against them when they wanted to eliminate the VP.You were nowhere when it happened, not your fault but you cannot give you the credit for something you didn't.
And they didn't make the senate partisan like you plan to do with the House. This is a fact. The current senate isn"t partisan and follows mostly the rules that were adopted by them.

They didn't because they couldn't. I was parcing every damn phrase of Nix's text. I would save the texts at my neighbors house, take them home review them, and make psots that I would post the next day. Also Nix had left Labor by that point and he no longer felt the need to appease the madman of the Midwest, especially since TPP was by this point on a ticket with a Federalist. But as President in July 2013, Nix constantly meddled in Senate rule debates, and openly endorsed TNF's proposal to make it a partisan administration.

I have long acknoweldged that you were one of the better Laborites on this matter, Windjammer, but for part of this period in question I don't even think you were a Laborite yet and certainly not VP yet.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2016, 07:43:43 PM »

Setting aside the historical revisionism for a minute, I will deal with that in minute.


Truman and Blair are correct and like many things with mock parliament, they took things to the excess to express their dislike of the Atlasian way and ended up destroying themselves.

That is why I said before. You could give I don't five slots to the majority and two to the minority, or perhaps some other spread. Perhaps five and three. There are ways to make it work, so everyone is engaged and constantly pushing towards getting a majority, so that you balance involvement with differentiation in power so as to create that incentive to seek such constantly, producing more frequent competitive elections with more candidates.

Also, one thing to note is the theoretical power of indies and third parties. An indy or a third party can get to a seat pretty easily. Anyone who looks at the first election and sees that partisan 5 Feds, 4 Labor should note that CR scattered its votes and several Feds and Laborites won independent voters. A single candidate can unify that vote and get elected and he would almost certainly become the deciding vote on everything. Therefore rather being powerless, just the opposite, he now has a certain amount of leverage.

This is one major different vrom the old Senate, where partisan administration would have necessarily t-boned the third parties and indies because of the intersection of the election methods and the size of the chamber. One more reason why it was such a bad idea there.

There is a difference between theory and the results in the end.

I led the major party for a year last year with Griffin. And I can tell you this: swing voter isnt a thing. One party will have always a big structural advantage. Your partisan house will make things even worse because one party will always have his representatives second class citizens.

If swing voters don't exist and Feds are so powerful? How is Adam Griffin President?
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2016, 07:50:45 PM »

Because Adam Griffin has special powers.

Things are now advancing in the Senate: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=238972.0
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windjammer
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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2016, 07:53:20 PM »

Regarding your point about the PPT election, I was honestly believing that write ins weren't allowed, as ihe was unable he declared in time. That wasn't a scheme from my part or whatever.
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Oooooh, I didn't even know about that. I thought you were referring to the last big change that happened in the senate rules (after my resignation and before my election to the senate, my apology.

But yes, I never supported a partisan senate or whatever and I have always wanted to letthe VP having some duties in the senate. So for my part, I never changed my position on this issue.

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The same way Flo won the Southern emperor election. You will tell me the South was a swing region at this time?

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windjammer
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« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2016, 07:54:09 PM »

Good!

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2016, 08:10:19 PM »

Regarding your point about the PPT election, I was honestly believing that write ins weren't allowed, as ihe was unable he declared in time. That wasn't a scheme from my part or whatever.
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Oooooh, I didn't even know about that. I thought you were referring to the last big change that happened in the senate rules (after my resignation and before my election to the senate, my apology.

Yea, I was generally talking about 2013.

And for those rules in October 2014, I was involved the in debates, despite not having internet access. I even posted an alternative, that preserved most of the same functions, and the PPT name, with only slight different in length from Nix's (mine was a 62% reduction in size, Nix's was 73%).

But yes, I never supported a partisan senate or whatever and I have always wanted to letthe VP having some duties in the senate. So for my part, I never changed my position on this issue.

Indeed, though I never recalled saying you had. I never really pictured you as "old Labor", precisely because you were so different from the rest on a variety of issues at the time. As I recall you started out as a Liberal Party member, so that wasn't all that surprising.

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The same way Flo won the Southern emperor election. You will tell me the South was a swing region at this time?

The first time? I beleive he was unopposed, The second time, yes, it kind of was. Hence why PiT won two months later, before all the TPPers deregistered from the region, even.
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windjammer
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« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2016, 08:21:51 PM »

He won reelection by convincing fed zombies to vote for him because muh nice guy. Not a definition of swing voters for me.
And additionnally the fed candidate was a total cretin.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2016, 08:30:39 PM »

He won reelection by convincing fed zombies to vote for him because muh nice guy. Not a definition of swing voters for me.

I don't recall that many "Fed" defections, but I cannot check my February chart right now.

And additionnally the fed candidate was a total cretin.


Sheer and utter nonsense! Tongue
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