Florida gunman was known to frequent club

[Yank2133]

Steroids, daddy issues, acting out in public for attention. It sounds like he was horribly repressed and just needed some booty. An all-too-common theme in mass shootings.

The obvious solution here is to legalize brothels in the other 49 states.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

If that is true, it just backs up what I said, he was closeted and hated himself with every fiber of his being, therefore it built up as hatred towards the LGBT community to try to make himself feel better. His dad sure didn't help matters much either...I meant he dude made an anti-gay vid not even 48 hours post-Orlando shooting. But going back to my point, he stored up anger at the LGBT community because he couldn't accept himself, and he self-radicalized because he felt he could use radicalism as an outlet for his self-contempt and loathing which then led to what we all witnessed early Sunday Morning.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

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http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html

I guess this guy really was repressed.  Just saw multiple people go on the record on MSNBC saying he contacted them on gay dating apps.

[Zioneer]

IMHO, he probably was closeted and HATED himself deeply for it, he started listening to Da'esh recruiters as an outlet to express his self-hatred and shamefulness and eventually was lured into committing this sickening atrocity.

Jeez, that just makes the story even more tragic. A totally avoidable tragedy, wouldn't have happened if this guy had just been able to not hate himself so much.

[MK]

I remember reports of the Paris gunmen being seen at the club before.  Seems they scout targets out in advance to know layout and any other possible issues.   He knew the security level was laxed and how the entrances and exits were. 

[SATW]

Two narratives are being pushed in this thread and I don't understand why it can't be both.

1. He was clearly radicalized by ISIS and/or other terrorist groups
2. He clearly had an obsession with LGBT, which, right now, seems to be related to some sort of suppressed feelings related to his sexuality and/or mental state.

[Zioneer]

Two narratives are being pushed in this thread and I don't understand why it can't be both.

1. He was clearly radicalized by ISIS and/or other terrorist groups
2. He clearly had an obsession with LGBT, which, right now, seems to be related to some sort of suppressed feelings related to his sexuality and/or mental state.

It looks like it was both, yeah. The second and his possible self-repression may have led to the first.

[SATW]

Two narratives are being pushed in this thread and I don't understand why it can't be both.

1. He was clearly radicalized by ISIS and/or other terrorist groups
2. He clearly had an obsession with LGBT, which, right now, seems to be related to some sort of suppressed feelings related to his sexuality and/or mental state.

It looks like it was both, yeah. The second and his possible self-repression may have led to the first.

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that every politically aware person is trying to push a certain agenda atm and it's causing necessary strife between Americans.

"It's a gun issue"
"It's a Radical Islam issue"
"It's  homophobia issue"

etc....

Personally, I believe Radical Islam has reared it's head again, but clearly it wasn't the only issue here. In fact, it's arguable that it's rarely the only issue, but it is in fact a massive problem that needs to be addressed.

Vapid Homophobia, clearly, also needs to be addressed, but the case of it that was present here was not the same type that is seen in most instances in this country. I also, personally don't think this is a gun issue.

But, no matter what my opinion or someone else's opinion is...I think it's time to step away and let the FBI do it's job. this shouldn't be a political football nor can we spin it to be.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that every politically aware person is trying to push a certain agenda atm and it's causing necessary strife between Americans.

"It's a gun issue"
"It's a Radical Islam issue"
"It's  homophobia issue"

etc....

Personally, I believe Radical Islam has reared it's head again, but clearly it wasn't the only issue here. In fact, it's arguable that it's rarely the only issue, but it is in fact a massive problem that needs to be addressed.

Vapid Homophobia, clearly, also needs to be addressed, but the case of it that was present here was not the same type that is seen in most instances in this country. I also, personally don't think this is a gun issue.

But, no matter what my opinion or someone else's opinion is...I think it's time to step away and let the FBI do it's job. this shouldn't be a political football nor can we spin it to be.

Nice try but you are the only person in this thread taking this opportunity to preach to us about your position on guns.  We all have our opinions but we kept them out of here.  You have no moral authority here.

Two narratives are being pushed in this thread and I don't understand why it can't be both.

1. He was clearly radicalized by ISIS and/or other terrorist groups

Reread the OP and the thread.  There isn't a single post where anyone says ISIS didn't play a part.  There is a 911 recording of the guy mentioning ISIS in his own voice.  That is not up for debate.  The only person that seems to have a problem understanding this stuff is multifactoral is Greenline.  Maybe you should just PM him and leave us in peace.

I remember reports of the Paris gunmen being seen at the club before.  Seems they scout targets out in advance to know layout and any other possible issues.   He knew the security level was laxed and how the entrances and exits were. 

The guy was going to the club for years so no this was not like Paris.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think the problem where Islam is concerned is the la k of condemnation for the homophobic motivations behind the attack. It's not enough for them to say "we condemn these acts" without going further and admitting their attitude towards homosexuals is partially to blame for creating the repressed lunatic that was Omar Mateen. (Weirdly one of the few responses from a prominent (non-leftist) Muslim politician that actually cited a freedom to love was Nawaz Sharif of all people).if only the states had some decent hate crime laws.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Muslims, well foreign ones from the homeland Islamic nations don't like homosexuals.

It's beyond a joke.

http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/it-cant-get-any-worse-than-being-gay-in-syria-today-20151001-gjze4o.html

[Taco Truck 🚚]

I think the problem where Islam is concerned...

In America Muslims are substantially more likely to support same sex marriage than Evangelical Christians.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/

[dead0man]

And they in turn are substantially behind your average American Christian.  Being socially more modern than Fundies and Mormons is like being the least anti-Semitic guy at the BDS rally.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think the problem where Islam is concerned...

In America Muslims are substantially more likely to support same sex marriage than Evangelical Christians.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/

Yes and that's why it's frustrating to see such cowardliness from the upper ranks of the faiths' bureaucracy. As always faith is being corrupted by the bastards at the top.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

And they in turn are substantially behind your average American Christian.  Being socially more modern than Fundies and Mormons is like being the least anti-Semitic guy at the BDS rally.

Not true.  44% of Christians approve of gay marriage.  42% of Muslims approve of gay marriage.  That is probably within the margin of error.  Also evangelical Christians are not the most antigay group of Christians.  There are multiple other groups of Christians that approve of gay marriage at a lower rate.  So nothing you posted as fact is true.

Even if what you said was true, which it isn't, that still begs the question, why say something like this...

I think the problem where Islam is concerned...

There is nothing unique about Islam in that regard.  Why make it about Islam?  What's the agenda?  Why not say, "the problem where every Judeo-Christian religion is concerned..."

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Islam is built off of Judaism and Christianity.

Something for my Christian and Jewish brothers to read...

Luke 6:41 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

[SATW]

I think the problem where Islam is concerned...

In America Muslims are substantially more likely to support same sex marriage than Evangelical Christians.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/

Yes and that's why it's frustrating to see such cowardliness from the upper ranks of the faiths' bureaucracy. As always faith is being corrupted by the bastards at the top.

ding ding ding. we have a winner.

[dead0man]

And they in turn are substantially behind your average American Christian.  Being socially more modern than Fundies and Mormons is like being the least anti-Semitic guy at the BDS rally.

Not true.  44% of Christians approve of gay marriage.  42% of Muslims approve of gay marriage.  That is probably within the margin of error.  Also evangelical Christians are not the most antigay group of Christians.  There are multiple other groups of Christians that approve of gay marriage at a lower rate.  So nothing you posted as fact is true.

Even if what you said was true, which it isn't, that still begs the question, why say something like this.

I thought we were doing the "acceptance" poll right above "marriage" one (I had read an article on that one earlier in the day).  My mistake for misreading.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Ah, what a weird role reversal. Normally I'm the one being accused of bending over for Muslims. Is this what it feels like to be right-wing? I don't like it.

Anyway to elaborate on my point, I am criticising the leadership of the religions for being cowardly and bowing to Saudi money. The ordinary Muslims who are practising their faith in the way their families have for centuries are being betrayed by their leadership for their failure to condemn homophobia (so is the christian leadership, but most westerners understand that the christian leaders are not representative of Christians, but are more likely to take the self appointed leaders of Islam at face value + Islam has a well-funded and marketed violent wing that encourages terrible acts to youth)

Take this Omar guy. His spiral seems to have been motivated by the fact his father did not accept his homosexuality. Combined with a violent and unstable nature and the catalyst of the 'cool' chance to gain infamy by aligning with daesh (the Apple computer of terrorist groups). The failure for the religion to accept homosexuality was a mistake - and their continued cowardliness stains the good name of the vast majority of Muslims.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Anyway to elaborate on my point, I am criticising the leadership of the religions for being cowardly and bowing to Saudi money. The ordinary Muslims who are practising their faith in the way their families have for centuries are being betrayed by their leadership for their failure to condemn homophobia (so is the christian leadership, but most westerners understand that the christian leaders are not representative of Christians, but are more likely to take the self appointed leaders of Islam at face value + Islam has a well-funded and marketed violent wing that encourages terrible acts to youth)

CrabCake, my humble advice is fly over to America and drive through the South.  US evangelical churches are everywhere.  They have a lot of power.  They have a lot of money and yes some of them even support violence.  Go to our abortion clinics.  Those places have armed guards and metal detectors.  We've had numerous abortion providers gunned down in the streets like dogs.  Countless rape victims have had to run a gauntlet to get an abortion because of Christians.  It's bad over here.  I'm a Christian, but I am not so deluded that I think a tiny fraction of less than 1% of the population is in any way responsible for the homophobia in my country.  That is a gigantic cop out.

To be honest with you I was always skeptical of this attack.  It didn't make sense.  Why would ISIS attack a group that is hated by extreme Christians?  This rabbit hole people are going down makes no sense and won't help us defend against the next attack.  There are already Christian groups praising this attack.  ISIS is probably already regretting associating their name with this guy.

But sure.  Pretend Islamic homophobia is a major threat in America.  Chase that shiny object.

[Badger]

Two narratives are being pushed in this thread and I don't understand why it can't be both.

1. He was clearly radicalized by ISIS and/or other terrorist groups
2. He clearly had an obsession with LGBT, which, right now, seems to be related to some sort of suppressed feelings related to his sexuality and/or mental state.

It looks like it was both, yeah. The second and his possible self-repression may have led to the first.

Thank you both for being voices of reason here.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Two narratives are being pushed in this thread and I don't understand why it can't be both.

1. He was clearly radicalized by ISIS and/or other terrorist groups
2. He clearly had an obsession with LGBT, which, right now, seems to be related to some sort of suppressed feelings related to his sexuality and/or mental state.

It looks like it was both, yeah. The second and his possible self-repression may have led to the first.

It seems even more tangled than that, to me. Not that one led to the other, but that they fed on each other. The guy's father clearly practiced a poisonous, extremely homophobic iteration of his religion, and that influenced his loathing as much as any inherent "self-loathing" did. All of that hatred turned back to that radical religion his father practiced, it seems.

I think it's important, when we talk about the effect his possible repressed homosexuality may have had to do with this, that the only reason that becomes a problem is because of the hostility to LGBTQ people in broader (majority) straight society, not because of some inherent capacity for LGBTQ people to loathe themselves.

[ingemann]

Ah, what a weird role reversal. Normally I'm the one being accused of bending over for Muslims. Is this what it feels like to be right-wing? I don't like it.

I don't know if it's how it feels to be right wing, but it's how it feels when you talk against your sides orthodoxy

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The problem are that Muslims have relative few voices in the West, especially voices who represent Muslims as groups. At the same time if a Christian priest say something horrible, you can find priests even of the same sect who are willing to condemn him. The few Christians sects where you can't find that, are in general also seen as pretty horrible and cult like. Your analyse that this among imams to some degree is caused by Saudi money is quite good and something to think about.

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I personally doubt his homosexuality had much to do with why he became a terrorists, but I think it had a lot to do with his choice in target. Everything indicates that there was something serious wrong with this guy and it had very little to do with his sexuality.

[afleitch]

The FBI are casting doubts on this particular narrative now;

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/us/orlando-shooting.html?emc=eta1

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Anyway to elaborate on my point, I am criticising the leadership of the religions for being cowardly and bowing to Saudi money. The ordinary Muslims who are practising their faith in the way their families have for centuries are being betrayed by their leadership for their failure to condemn homophobia (so is the christian leadership, but most westerners understand that the christian leaders are not representative of Christians, but are more likely to take the self appointed leaders of Islam at face value + Islam has a well-funded and marketed violent wing that encourages terrible acts to youth)

CrabCake, my humble advice is fly over to America and drive through the South.  US evangelical churches are everywhere.  They have a lot of power.  They have a lot of money and yes some of them even support violence.  Go to our abortion clinics.  Those places have armed guards and metal detectors.  We've had numerous abortion providers gunned down in the streets like dogs.  Countless rape victims have had to run a gauntlet to get an abortion because of Christians.  It's bad over here.  I'm a Christian, but I am not so deluded that I think a tiny fraction of less than 1% of the population is in any way responsible for the homophobia in my country.  That is a gigantic cop out.

To be honest with you I was always skeptical of this attack.  It didn't make sense.  Why would ISIS attack a group that is hated by extreme Christians?  This rabbit hole people are going down makes no sense and won't help us defend against the next attack.  There are already Christian groups praising this attack.  ISIS is probably already regretting associating their name with this guy.

But sure.  Pretend Islamic homophobia is a major threat in America.  Chase that shiny object.

Eh, I think homophobia in all communities need to be rooted out. Hasidic, Muslim, Mennonite, secular, Mormon... it's all a 'bad thing'. Notice I'm not really taking about terrorism. Violence and being conservative are different things. One can be an extremely conservative, homophobic person and not carry out violent acts; one can be liberal and randomly be radicalised over a short timeframe and do subsequent violence.