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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« on: June 24, 2016, 08:48:27 PM »

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-america-1455290458

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This article is long, but compelling.  It's one reason I think Trump will do better than the polls, and why he won't be on the losing end of a landslide a la Goldwater or McGovern.
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wolfsblood07
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2016, 09:21:43 PM »

Excellent points.  This year should may turn out very good!
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2016, 09:58:35 PM »

Excellent points.  This year should may turn out very good!

Here's a quote from Charles Murray's "Trump's America" about Trump's supporters that bears highlighting:

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There are many consequences of Trumpism that will remain with us.  One of them is the end of the GOP nominating process being a contest of "Who's the purest conservative?".  Here you have a major constituency within the GOP that is demanding that the government act on their behalf.  These people have been Republicans and voted Republican forever; they weren't noticed because they were ignored and crapped on.  Until the day, that is, where a turd hit them in the eye and they woke up.  Our politics IS better for this; it's the end of the "Mr. Conservative" beauty contest that would have dismissed Trumpism as an anamoly and made Ted Cruz the "next in line".
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wolfsblood07
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2016, 10:21:00 PM »

Excellent points.  This year should may turn out very good!

Here's a quote from Charles Murray's "Trump's America" about Trump's supporters that bears highlighting:

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There are many consequences of Trumpism that will remain with us.  One of them is the end of the GOP nominating process being a contest of "Who's the purest conservative?".  Here you have a major constituency within the GOP that is demanding that the government act on their behalf.  These people have been Republicans and voted Republican forever; they weren't noticed because they were ignored and crapped on.  Until the day, that is, where a turd hit them in the eye and they woke up.  Our politics IS better for this; it's the end of the "Mr. Conservative" beauty contest that would have dismissed Trumpism as an anamoly and made Ted Cruz the "next in line".
The implications on the conservative movement are enormous, I do agree.  I never thought I'd see the day when Rush Limbaugh would become wobbly on the question of how important it is that the GOP candidate be a true conservative.  But here we are.
But if the neocons are out, I won't miss them.  Pat Buchanan is a staunch conservative and he's on the Trump train.  Exciting times are upon us!
I like the blue avatar!
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2016, 11:12:22 PM »

The working class will not be voting for Trump. This isn't Europe.
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Meclazine for Israel
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2016, 12:52:04 AM »

The working class will not be voting for Trump. This isn't Europe.

I am not sure whether you realise what the average American family looks like before you made that statement.

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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2016, 08:21:57 AM »

Excellent points.  This year should may turn out very good!

Here's a quote from Charles Murray's "Trump's America" about Trump's supporters that bears highlighting:

Quote
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There are many consequences of Trumpism that will remain with us.  One of them is the end of the GOP nominating process being a contest of "Who's the purest conservative?".  Here you have a major constituency within the GOP that is demanding that the government act on their behalf.  These people have been Republicans and voted Republican forever; they weren't noticed because they were ignored and crapped on.  Until the day, that is, where a turd hit them in the eye and they woke up.  Our politics IS better for this; it's the end of the "Mr. Conservative" beauty contest that would have dismissed Trumpism as an anamoly and made Ted Cruz the "next in line".
The implications on the conservative movement are enormous, I do agree.  I never thought I'd see the day when Rush Limbaugh would become wobbly on the question of how important it is that the GOP candidate be a true conservative.  But here we are.
But if the neocons are out, I won't miss them.  Pat Buchanan is a staunch conservative and he's on the Trump train.  Exciting times are upon us!
I like the blue avatar!

The implications of the conservative movement are, indeed, huge.  It's the reason why it's huge that bears discussing.

The GOP has depended on folks like Trump supporters who, indeed, while Republicans and having a conservative social viewpoint, do want government intervention on THEIR behalf.  Trump's campaign has, indeed, exposed this disconnect more than a little bit.

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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2016, 01:04:10 PM »

Excellent points.  This year should may turn out very good!

Here's a quote from Charles Murray's "Trump's America" about Trump's supporters that bears highlighting:

Quote
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There are many consequences of Trumpism that will remain with us.  One of them is the end of the GOP nominating process being a contest of "Who's the purest conservative?".  Here you have a major constituency within the GOP that is demanding that the government act on their behalf.  These people have been Republicans and voted Republican forever; they weren't noticed because they were ignored and crapped on.  Until the day, that is, where a turd hit them in the eye and they woke up.  Our politics IS better for this; it's the end of the "Mr. Conservative" beauty contest that would have dismissed Trumpism as an anamoly and made Ted Cruz the "next in line".

The implications on the conservative movement are enormous, I do agree.  I never thought I'd see the day when Rush Limbaugh would become wobbly on the question of how important it is that the GOP candidate be a true conservative.  But here we are.

But if the neocons are out, I won't miss them.  Pat Buchanan is a staunch conservative and he's on the Trump train.  Exciting times are upon us!

I like the blue avatar!

The implications of the conservative movement are, indeed, huge.  It's the reason why it's huge that bears discussing.

The GOP has depended on folks like Trump supporters who, indeed, while Republicans and having a conservative social viewpoint, do want government intervention on THEIR behalf.  Trump's campaign has, indeed, exposed this disconnect more than a little bit.

Exactly. What it means to be aligned with the GOP is shifting this cycle, and in my view the shift is for the better, as it reflects the desire of American citizens to have their government work for them. And the Brexit results serve to indicate that the feeling is not unique to citizens of the United States. I believe that those wishing to argue that globalization is a good thing are going to have a big uphill battle this time around.
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2016, 01:13:27 PM »

Trumpism is a movement by those who want the government to continue the social programs and who believe the lies that "immigrants are taking their jobs", have a xenophobic attitude towards Muslims and Hispanics, and have generally a centrist to conservative view on social issues. These are the people who have been reluctantly voting for the GOP for years only because of social issues. Trump has exposed the disconnect between them and the leadership of the GOP.

It's also the movement that is pushing me further and further away from the GOP.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 01:18:34 PM »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2016, 01:36:59 PM »

Trumpism is a movement by those who want the government to continue the social programs and who believe the lies that "immigrants are taking their jobs", have a xenophobic attitude towards Muslims and Hispanics, and have generally a centrist to conservative view on social issues. These are the people who have been reluctantly voting for the GOP for years only because of social issues. Trump has exposed the disconnect between them and the leadership of the GOP.

It's also the movement that is pushing me further and further away from the GOP.

The underlined part is the lasting effect of Trumpism on the GOP.  There is, indeed, a chasm between the "small government" types and the Trump types.

The idea that "immigrants took our jobs" has some basis in fact.  After the 2004 major hurricanes in Florida, contractors resorted to hiring work crews stocked with Hispanic workers.  Of course, many were citizens or legal immigrants, but many were illegally here, and folks knew it.  Their presence in the workforce didn't reduce the price of home repairs, but it did increase the profits to contractors.  

The jobs these folks took were low-skill construction labor jobs.  They were jobs that, had they been on the books, would have paid some child support that didn't get paid.  They were jobs that had the workers been on the books, they would have been covered by workers comp, which meant that when they fell off a roof and injured themselves, the taxpayers wouldn't have been stuck for the cost of their medical treatment.  They were jobs that could have been filled by Americans but they weren't, and they weren't because porous borders allowed for a number of contractors to hire "cheap labor" and hire the laborers "off the books".  

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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2016, 01:37:51 PM »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.

I would "like" this if it were on Facebook.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2016, 01:38:27 PM »

Not gonna bother reading the racist filth shared in the OP.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2016, 01:58:53 PM »

Not gonna bother reading the racist filth shared in the OP.

Is it racist to assert that America's immigration laws should be written and enforced in such a manner as to be for the benefit of American citizens, regardless of how it effects non-citizens?

That's really the heart of the immigration debate; who is immigration supposed to benefit?  It's not a question of "rights"; foreigners have no "right" to enter the United States unless we decide it's OK to do so, and we, as a nation, through our laws, get to decide what foreigners can come in, and which ones can't.  

If it's not in the interest of American Citizens to keep legal immigration at its current levels, and it is in the interest of American Citizens to reduce legal immigration, then why should we not do so?

If it's in the interest of American Citizens to step up the deportation process of those illegally here in order to deter folks from illegally entering the United States, then why would it be wrong to do so?  

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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2016, 02:02:17 PM »

Well luckily for immigrants, most Americans don't support deporting all illegal immigrants and are perfectly fine with the current levels of immigration.
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2016, 02:28:35 PM »

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Right. Trumpsters sh**tting on conservatives and they expect us to support their nominee?
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Sbane
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2016, 02:36:08 PM »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.

Immigration as a whole is good for America. That doesn't mean there aren't winners and losers. And it's not just the 1% that benefits. It also helps those who work white collar jobs and can get cheaper meals at restaurants, cheaper stays at hotels, cheaper prices at supermarkets etc. Without immigrants the standard of living of most Americans would fall.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2016, 02:42:56 PM »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.

Immigration as a whole is good for America. That doesn't mean there aren't winners and losers. And it's not just the 1% that benefits. It also helps those who work white collar jobs and can get cheaper meals at restaurants, cheaper stays at hotels, cheaper prices at supermarkets etc. Without immigrants the standard of living of most Americans would fall.

I notice you say "white collar".  They have benefitted.  But the losers are the folks that make up blue-collar America.

If immigrants are benefitting at the expense of the established working class, is that really OK?
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Sbane
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2016, 03:06:45 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2016, 03:11:19 PM by Sbane »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.

Immigration as a whole is good for America. That doesn't mean there aren't winners and losers. And it's not just the 1% that benefits. It also helps those who work white collar jobs and can get cheaper meals at restaurants, cheaper stays at hotels, cheaper prices at supermarkets etc. Without immigrants the standard of living of most Americans would fall.

I notice you say "white collar".  They have benefitted.  But the losers are the folks that make up blue-collar America.

If immigrants are benefitting at the expense of the established working class, is that really OK?

I think the real question is whether or not America as a whole is benefiting.

Look, with the double whammy of immigration and outsourcing, perhaps some control needs to happen. That doesn't mean you elect a racist (there is a difference between being racist and anti-immigration) who is completely incompetent and unqualified for the job.

Mitt Romney was against any legalization of illegal immigrants but did anyone call him a racist? No, because he did not demonize them like Trump is doing. I would like to think you are a good person, but it is hard to do when you support a racist. Perhaps no one has talked about your issues before, but that doesn't mean you should elect someone completely unqualified to sit in the white house. He is only going to make things worse, for citizens and immigrants alike. Indeed, the whole world will be worse off. Mark my words.
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Chaddyr23
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2016, 03:07:37 PM »

Immigration has not taken away blue collar jobs to the degree that mechanization has. If anything immigrants today are proportionally more likely to be 'job creators' in the form of small business owners than the rest of the population. The mythical immigrant that is too lazy to work and on welfare but still adept enough to take a blue collar job is something that should not be entertained but we know the notion has been cultivated for quite some time.

One point mentioned is accurate many working class people that vote Republicans are not mad that the government helps people they are mad that it does not help them more so than the rest of the population.
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SillyAmerican
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2016, 03:17:32 PM »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.

Immigration as a whole is good for America. That doesn't mean there aren't winners and losers. And it's not just the 1% that benefits. It also helps those who work white collar jobs and can get cheaper meals at restaurants, cheaper stays at hotels, cheaper prices at supermarkets etc. Without immigrants the standard of living of most Americans would fall.

No argument with these statements. However, you fail to distinguish between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants, and it's a very important distinction. Frankly, I can't understand why people would argue against enforcing our immigration laws. If you don't like those laws, change them. If you'd prefer letting folks come into the country to work, propose a structured way of allowing that to happen. But please, please don't just ignore certain laws that are on the books because, well, "nobody" wants them to be enforced, because somebody thinks them to be a good idea and wants them to be enforced (otherwise they wouldn't be on the books).
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Vosem
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2016, 03:32:59 PM »

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You realize that, on some level, Ted Cruz is next in line once Trump loses, right?

Anyway, you've presented a coherent image of what Trumpism is in this thread, which is not entirely original to you but is more fleshed-out than most previous explanations I've heard from actual Trump supporters, so I commend you for that. The problem with the ideology you've presented is (and, to some extent this is a problem with the personality of Trump and the way he has run his campaign) that it is, at least for the moment, most decidedly not spreading to the congressional GOP; and it is one that cannot hope to triumph in a presidential contest.

If the ideology you describe has a future in American politics (especially, but not solely, because of the generational problems that what you describe encounters), then it's a future as one element within a congressional coalition. There are parts of the country where what you describe could (or does) command a decisive majority, but ultimately it is only barely capable of grasping a presidential nomination even when it is fully united and its opponents are hopelessly divided (and, even then, how much of that is ascribable to the worldview and how much to the personality of Donald Trump -- which has no future beyond the man himself -- is a difficult question to answer; certainly logic dictates that what you describe should have been stronger in 2008 and 2012, when the economy was worse and Millennials were a smaller proportion of the electorate, than now; yet before the personality of Trump it utterly failed to present itself), and there are too many within the right-wing coalition who would actively prefer a Democratic administration to "Trumpism" for it to ever triumph in a presidential general election (and considering demographic trends this should worsen with time).

tl;dr What you describe is an actual phenomenon, but it needs congressional adherents before it can really exert a force on US politics and focusing on presidential politics is likely to be a counterproductive effort.
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Sbane
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2016, 03:33:59 PM »

Immigrants are most certainly taking jobs that would otherwise be done by Americans. This is not a lie. Even supporters of immigration must realize this on some level. It's not as if we didn't allow immigration, there wouldn't be super markets or restaurants.

Immigration as a whole is good for America. That doesn't mean there aren't winners and losers. And it's not just the 1% that benefits. It also helps those who work white collar jobs and can get cheaper meals at restaurants, cheaper stays at hotels, cheaper prices at supermarkets etc. Without immigrants the standard of living of most Americans would fall.

No argument with these statements. However, you fail to distinguish between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants, and it's a very important distinction. Frankly, I can't understand why people would argue against enforcing our immigration laws. If you don't like those laws, change them. If you'd prefer letting folks come into the country to work, propose a structured way of allowing that to happen. But please, please don't just ignore certain laws that are on the books because, well, "nobody" wants them to be enforced, because somebody thinks them to be a good idea and wants them to be enforced (otherwise they wouldn't be on the books).

There is only one issue there. American immigration policy is very reticent to allow any working class immigrants to come into the US, which is why you have the illegal immigrant situation you see today. It would be better if we could allow these people to come through legal channels but the problem is that it is not politically feasible to do so. People may be ok with a Chinsese businessman or an Indian IT dude coming in, but they balk when you ask if it is ok if a Mexican farmworker comes in as well. How do you fix the immigration system in a rational way that allows people to come in to do jobs no one else will do? And that way one can stop the excesses of illegal immigration while preserving the benefits. I don't see how that is politically possible though in an environment where racists like Trump are wining the nomination of one of the two established parties of America.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2016, 03:38:14 PM »

Immigration has not taken away blue collar jobs to the degree that mechanization has. If anything immigrants today are proportionally more likely to be 'job creators' in the form of small business owners than the rest of the population. The mythical immigrant that is too lazy to work and on welfare but still adept enough to take a blue collar job is something that should not be entertained but we know the notion has been cultivated for quite some time.

One point mentioned is accurate many working class people that vote Republicans are not mad that the government helps people they are mad that it does not help them more so than the rest of the population.

The jobs they create are at small businesses which can't provide a living wage. They take up market share that could otherwise go to native businesses which might have been able to.

Also, it's not that immigrants collect welfare because they are lazy and don't work, it's that they collect welfare because they have low paying jobs and also 3 or more kids, so they get welfare and they rarely pay any income tax because of the child tax rebate.
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Sbane
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2016, 03:54:35 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2016, 03:56:10 PM by Sbane »

Immigration has not taken away blue collar jobs to the degree that mechanization has. If anything immigrants today are proportionally more likely to be 'job creators' in the form of small business owners than the rest of the population. The mythical immigrant that is too lazy to work and on welfare but still adept enough to take a blue collar job is something that should not be entertained but we know the notion has been cultivated for quite some time.

One point mentioned is accurate many working class people that vote Republicans are not mad that the government helps people they are mad that it does not help them more so than the rest of the population.

The jobs they create are at small businesses which can't provide a living wage. They take up market share that could otherwise go to native businesses which might have been able to.

This is such a ridiculous statement showing you don't understand how a business works. Why would a "native" business be able to pay more than immigrant one? The only way a native business could do that is by raising prices. Which is the point. Without immigrants, everyone's standard of living would go down. The only people it would benefit would be people who flip burgers. It wouldn't even help the skilled working class like plumbers, electricians etc.
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