Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible?
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  Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible?
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Author Topic: Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible?  (Read 1617 times)
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CrabCake
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« on: June 26, 2016, 06:28:33 PM »

A lot of the justification for borders seem to me like the defence of apartheid gone global. Why is it moral to trap people iin poverty within an artificial creation like a nation-state for the various governments of the world to do as they wish to them

I mean on deontological grounds, closed borders are basically indefensible. People have a right to be free and own themselves (not held within the binds of a government they only have a part of).

So is there really a moral defence that says it is OK for governments to keep someone from migrating from Congo to Europe, but that it is immoral for the Soviet Union to stop Siberians moving to Moscow?
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ag
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 06:37:36 PM »

A lot of the justification for borders seem to me like the defence of apartheid gone global. Why is it moral to trap people iin poverty within an artificial creation like a nation-state for the various governments of the world to do as they wish to them

I mean on deontological grounds, closed borders are basically indefensible. People have a right to be free and own themselves (not held within the binds of a government they only have a part of).

So is there really a moral defence that says it is OK for governments to keep someone from migrating from Congo to Europe, but that it is immoral for the Soviet Union to stop Siberians moving to Moscow?

We all have different morals. It is not in my book.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 07:41:25 PM »

A lot of the justification for borders seem to me like the defence of apartheid gone global. Why is it moral to trap people iin poverty within an artificial creation like a nation-state for the various governments of the world to do as they wish to them

I mean on deontological grounds, closed borders are basically indefensible. People have a right to be free and own themselves (not held within the binds of a government they only have a part of).

So is there really a moral defence that says it is OK for governments to keep someone from migrating from Congo to Europe, but that it is immoral for the Soviet Union to stop Siberians moving to Moscow?

We all have different morals. It is not in my book.

Yes: everything is both defensible and indefensible, because we all have a different moral system. This is one of the key failures of modernity.

It's also relevant to the discussion at hand, because, with unrestricted immigration, a population is guaranteed to host conflicting moral views.
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2016, 09:19:54 PM »

Closing borders and restricting immigration has always been something acceptable for a nation-state to do. Claiming that doing so is morally indefensible is I think, too pure and narrow to be part of a pragmatic moral system.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 02:30:43 AM »

Closing borders and restricting immigration has always been something acceptable for a nation-state to do.

"It happens very often, therefore it's moral" has rarely been a good argument.
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 06:09:44 AM »

Well, the nation-state isn't actually artificial. For America on the other hand...
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dead0man
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 07:28:19 AM »

Can we get some examples of where it was tried and how it went?


or


Is it morally defensible to not let that 40th man get into this 22 man life boat?





Open borders are great if you hate the current poor people in the nice posh western country you live in and would like to see them more multicultural and more poor.
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2016, 09:03:10 AM »

But what schools of morality can be used to defend borders?

Certainly not a deontological one, nor a Rowlsian veil of ignorance. I guess utilitarian thought? Which is kind of dead man's argument (ignoring his typically moronic closing remarks)?
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parochial boy
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2016, 09:20:03 AM »

Well, the nation-state isn't actually artificial. For America on the other hand...

Well in many respects it is, the modern concept of nationalism is pretty much a 19th century invention. Ethnic identities existed before that, of course, but there wasn't really much of a concept of basing the political state on ethnic groups, or self identifying "nations".

Before the 19th century, there was really no concept of being German, or Estonian, or Slovakian or many of the "Nation States" that we now take as being natural and inevitable.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2016, 12:53:06 PM »

The extent that mass population flows wreak havoc on countries, yes it is very moral and desirable to regulate the flow of people coming in. Also to make it more practical to weed out the bad apples, those seeking to murder thousands of people, a low level of inflow is also desirable.

These extreme globalist positions and statements of the like espoused by the OP, are the very reason the UK just voted out and Trump is the Republican nominee. Most people are naturally pro-immigration, I consider myself pro-immigration. But when you have people running around saying "End all deportations" or "borders are morally corrupt", such extremism pushes people to the extremes and turns people into nativists.

No country or group of countries can take on the whole of the third world and it is ridiculous to say we have some moral obligation to innundate ourselves to the point that the instablity and chaos improveishes us all equally. No, the answer is to encourage stable politics, investment and growth and development in the third world to reduce poverty there, while preserving your own strength and wealth so you can in fact assist with investment and you know, buying their crap. And yes that requires trade and frankly as I said years ago, the elitism and out of touch nature of free traders was going to sign their own death warrants and the world would be worse off for it as true Protectionism came back in vogue. I was right.

But no, just the like the idiots running the GOP establishment who were too stupid and are still too stupid to steer away from the cliff, they keep thinking more and dumber ways to force things people don't want, pushing them further in the opposite direction. Not surprisingly, the globalists are reading from the same manual and with the same devastating result. This will not change until they look themselves in the mirror and say, "we brought this on ourselves", not ignorance, not stupid voters, not racism (though it clearly plays a part), but instead constantly telling a man who works his whole life that his life is ruined for the sake of some farcical and misguided notion of the global good and expecting him not to stick a knife in your gut, has brought the world to ruin.
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2016, 12:55:43 PM »

Well, the nation-state isn't actually artificial. For America on the other hand...

Well in many respects it is, the modern concept of nationalism is pretty much a 19th century invention. Ethnic identities existed before that, of course, but there wasn't really much of a concept of basing the political state on ethnic groups, or self identifying "nations".

Before the 19th century, there was really no concept of being German, or Estonian, or Slovakian or many of the "Nation States" that we now take as being natural and inevitable.

Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2016, 02:02:01 PM »

OK obviously reading Yankee's responce i didn't make myself clear. I'm not interested in talking about the political ramifications or whatever. I posted it here in this board (and not the Discussion or Economics board) because I want to find a moral perspective using ethical theory on borders. In short, i want to find a way that I can sleep easy at night believing in closed borders on one hand and condemning seemingly governmental intrusions on liberty like apartheid and segregation on the other.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2016, 02:19:43 PM »

OK obviously reading Yankee's responce i didn't make myself clear. I'm not interested in talking about the political ramifications or whatever. I posted it here in this board (and not the Discussion or Economics board) because I want to find a moral perspective using ethical theory on borders. In short, i want to find a way that I can sleep easy at night believing in closed borders on one hand and condemning seemingly governmental intrusions on liberty like apartheid and segregation on the other.

I guess you can take comfort in the fact that the segregation is mutual: the US doesn't like immigration from Mexico, and Mexico doesn't like immigration from Guatemala; South Africa has as much of a right to end immigration from the UK as the UK has to end immigration from South Africa.
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2016, 02:25:30 PM »

I fail to see why it's immoral. A state is nothing more than institution, which seek to monopolise force on a specific territory. Limiting the access of people to that pierce of territory is just the enforcement of the that monopoly. People are welcome to think that the state's monopolising of force on its territory is immoral, but in that case you're not a liberal democrat, but a anarchist.

If we look at human rights which set up the few limitation of the state's monopoly of force. It gives people the right to leave a state's territory, not a right to enter. That right is limited to citizens, who can't be banned from entering their country, unless they have done something to lose their citizenship.

Also this entire discussion sum up why the Left keep losing election and people become more nationalistic. So crabcake if you want to know why UK left EU, a large part of the answer lies in you even asking a question like this.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2016, 02:46:08 PM »

Well, from a utilitarian point of view, if something, on average, hurts people, then restructing it can hardly be immoral.



Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.

I know, but pre 19th century states took their legitimacy from something that was not national or ethnic solidarity. The concept of a state taking its legitimacy from nationalism was a construct largely used for political purposes. All I was saying was that the Nation State isn't a "natural" phenomena.
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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2016, 03:05:44 PM »

Well, from a utilitarian point of view, if something, on average, hurts people, then restructing it can hardly be immoral.



Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.

I know, but pre 19th century states took their legitimacy from something that was not national or ethnic solidarity. The concept of a state taking its legitimacy from nationalism was a construct largely used for political purposes. All I was saying was that the Nation State isn't a "natural" phenomena.

The pre-19th century states did limit the access to its territory, not just as much but even more than the national states which replaced them. A national state is in fact often more open than the dynastic and regional states which came before them. Of course with the development of the non-discriminatory welfare state, the state had to protect its territory from outsiders again.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2016, 03:33:22 PM »

Well, from a utilitarian point of view, if something, on average, hurts people, then restructing it can hardly be immoral.



Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.

I know, but pre 19th century states took their legitimacy from something that was not national or ethnic solidarity. The concept of a state taking its legitimacy from nationalism was a construct largely used for political purposes. All I was saying was that the Nation State isn't a "natural" phenomena.

The pre-19th century states did limit the access to its territory, not just as much but even more than the national states which replaced them. A national state is in fact often more open than the dynastic and regional states which came before them. Of course with the development of the non-discriminatory welfare state, the state had to protect its territory from outsiders again.

That's not really the point I was making.

But in any case, it is not entirely true that all pre 19th C states did restrict access to their territory, I mean for a start, the Mongol or Moorish empires were so conceptually different to a modern state that you almost couldn't compare them in any meaningful way.

And in much of medieval Europe, the institutions of state were often so weak as to be practically irrelevant. Look at the Holy Roman Empire and the way it completely fell apart in the thirty years war. There wan't much control of migration going on at that point in time.
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ingemann
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2016, 03:55:07 PM »

Well, from a utilitarian point of view, if something, on average, hurts people, then restructing it can hardly be immoral.



Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.

I know, but pre 19th century states took their legitimacy from something that was not national or ethnic solidarity. The concept of a state taking its legitimacy from nationalism was a construct largely used for political purposes. All I was saying was that the Nation State isn't a "natural" phenomena.

The pre-19th century states did limit the access to its territory, not just as much but even more than the national states which replaced them. A national state is in fact often more open than the dynastic and regional states which came before them. Of course with the development of the non-discriminatory welfare state, the state had to protect its territory from outsiders again.

That's not really the point I was making.

But in any case, it is not entirely true that all pre 19th C states did restrict access to their territory, I mean for a start, the Mongol or Moorish empires were so conceptually different to a modern state that you almost couldn't compare them in any meaningful way.

And in much of medieval Europe, the institutions of state were often so weak as to be practically irrelevant. Look at the Holy Roman Empire and the way it completely fell apart in the thirty years war. There wan't much control of migration going on at that point in time.

It's true that state's which was so weak that it couldn't control its own territory, really didn't restict access to its own territory. But honestly that's obvious. That's like saying that states which can't defend itself don't defend itself.

The monopoly of force is a ideal, not something which always exist. But whenever a state could enforce a large degree of control over its own territory, like the Hanseatic city states, it was fully able and willing to limit the access of outsiders inside the state's territory. There was a reason the Imperial City of Bremen succeed in being a calvinistic enclave between the Lutheran county (later duchy) of Oldenburg and the Lutheran prince-archbishopric (later duchy) of Bremen. It was because it was able to enforce access to the city.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2016, 04:45:24 PM »

OK obviously reading Yankee's responce i didn't make myself clear. I'm not interested in talking about the political ramifications or whatever. I posted it here in this board (and not the Discussion or Economics board) because I want to find a moral perspective using ethical theory on borders. In short, i want to find a way that I can sleep easy at night believing in closed borders on one hand and condemning seemingly governmental intrusions on liberty like apartheid and segregation on the other.

But the political ramifications do matter because they lead to bad political decision making in turn a worse end result, like depending on your perspective Brexit. Lets say you are a remainer, and believe in the consequences Brexit has been stated to have. Therefore the morality of being able to keep out terrorists and easing the pain at least somewhat in post-industrial areas as a way of preventing the leave vote, presents itself with a moral benefit of avoiding those negative consequences.

I listened to Corbyn's speech the next morning and he made important points how many of these areas had been left behind, by gov't economic and immigration policy thus motivating their vote for out. I compare that to say Tony Blair, who said they basically used it as a protest vote (implied against Cameron), but the truth of the matter was they were protesting 40 years of policy of which Europe was a part. Corbyn is a terrible leader, but at least he has sense enough to understand these communities plight and what motivates them.
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2016, 04:50:26 PM »

Well, from a utilitarian point of view, if something, on average, hurts people, then restructing it can hardly be immoral.



Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.

I know, but pre 19th century states took their legitimacy from something that was not national or ethnic solidarity. The concept of a state taking its legitimacy from nationalism was a construct largely used for political purposes. All I was saying was that the Nation State isn't a "natural" phenomena.

The pre-19th century states did limit the access to its territory, not just as much but even more than the national states which replaced them. A national state is in fact often more open than the dynastic and regional states which came before them. Of course with the development of the non-discriminatory welfare state, the state had to protect its territory from outsiders again.

That's not really the point I was making.

But in any case, it is not entirely true that all pre 19th C states did restrict access to their territory, I mean for a start, the Mongol or Moorish empires were so conceptually different to a modern state that you almost couldn't compare them in any meaningful way.

And in much of medieval Europe, the institutions of state were often so weak as to be practically irrelevant. Look at the Holy Roman Empire and the way it completely fell apart in the thirty years war. There wan't much control of migration going on at that point in time.

And something like 30% to 40% of the population of Germany died as a result of the 30 years war.
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2016, 04:52:21 PM »

OK obviously reading Yankee's responce i didn't make myself clear. I'm not interested in talking about the political ramifications or whatever. I posted it here in this board (and not the Discussion or Economics board) because I want to find a moral perspective using ethical theory on borders. In short, i want to find a way that I can sleep easy at night believing in closed borders on one hand and condemning seemingly governmental intrusions on liberty like apartheid and segregation on the other.

But the political ramifications do matter because they lead to bad political decision making in turn a worse end result, like depending on your perspective Brexit. Lets say you are a remainer, and believe in the consequences Brexit has been stated to have. Therefore the morality of being able to keep out terrorists and easing the pain at least somewhat in post-industrial areas as a way of preventing the leave vote, presents itself with a moral benefit of avoiding those negative consequences.

I listened to Corbyn's speech the next morning and he made important points how many of these areas had been left behind, by gov't economic and immigration policy thus motivating their vote for out. I compare that to say Tony Blair, who said they basically used it as a protest vote (implied against Cameron), but the truth of the matter was they were protesting 40 years of policy of which Europe was a part. Corbyn is a terrible leader, but at least he has sense enough to understand these communities plight and what motivates them.

No they don't. Because it's not the question I am asking. Because your answer does not satisfactory answer a question on morality, merely quibbles on tactics.

I fail to see why it's immoral. A state is nothing more than institution, which seek to monopolise force on a specific territory. Limiting the access of people to that pierce of territory is just the enforcement of the that monopoly. People are welcome to think that the state's monopolising of force on its territory is immoral, but in that case you're not a liberal democrat, but a anarchist.

If we look at human rights which set up the few limitation of the state's monopoly of force. It gives people the right to leave a state's territory, not a right to enter. That right is limited to citizens, who can't be banned from entering their country, unless they have done something to lose their citizenship.

Also this entire discussion sum up why the Left keep losing election and people become more nationalistic. So crabcake if you want to know why UK left EU, a large part of the answer lies in you even asking a question like this.

But why does this right exist? Why is it moral for the northern unemployed man in Britain to "get on his bike" to find work, while it is immoral for an African man to get in his bike to go after work?
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2016, 05:39:37 PM »

Why is it that only the first order of events matter?

I give a 16 year old boy a horse in a village, and he can use that to plow a field. Is it moral, yes!

The boy then falls off the horse and breaks his legs. Was it a moral decision?


But a few days later that village goes to war, and every one his age except him has to go off and fight? Was it a moral decision now?

You can tie yourself in knots and lose sleep over theoretical discussions of morality all day long, and drive yourself crazy in the process. And worse, if you make policy based on that, drive yourself right to the scaffold and plunge the whole world in chaos.

Leaders and countries have to make decision for what is best for their people. A strong and rich country has the ability to help other countries with charity, invest in other country's infrastructure and buy other countries products. A poor country can do none of those things and frankly, condemning the whole world to poverty in some misguided sense of morality, is probably the most immoral thing you can do.
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2016, 05:45:46 PM »

I fail to see why it's immoral. A state is nothing more than institution, which seek to monopolise force on a specific territory. Limiting the access of people to that pierce of territory is just the enforcement of the that monopoly. People are welcome to think that the state's monopolising of force on its territory is immoral, but in that case you're not a liberal democrat, but a anarchist.

If we look at human rights which set up the few limitation of the state's monopoly of force. It gives people the right to leave a state's territory, not a right to enter. That right is limited to citizens, who can't be banned from entering their country, unless they have done something to lose their citizenship.

Also this entire discussion sum up why the Left keep losing election and people become more nationalistic. So crabcake if you want to know why UK left EU, a large part of the answer lies in you even asking a question like this.

But why does this right exist? Why is it moral for the northern unemployed man in Britain to "get on his bike" to find work, while it is immoral for an African man to get in his bike to go after work?

Why is it moral to create poverty where it doesn't exist because it exists somewhere else, as opposed ot preserving the former as a wealthy country so that it can work to erase poverty elsewhere?
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2016, 05:57:33 PM »

I fail to see why it's immoral. A state is nothing more than institution, which seek to monopolise force on a specific territory. Limiting the access of people to that pierce of territory is just the enforcement of the that monopoly. People are welcome to think that the state's monopolising of force on its territory is immoral, but in that case you're not a liberal democrat, but a anarchist.

If we look at human rights which set up the few limitation of the state's monopoly of force. It gives people the right to leave a state's territory, not a right to enter. That right is limited to citizens, who can't be banned from entering their country, unless they have done something to lose their citizenship.

Also this entire discussion sum up why the Left keep losing election and people become more nationalistic. So crabcake if you want to know why UK left EU, a large part of the answer lies in you even asking a question like this.

But why does this right exist? Why is it moral for the northern unemployed man in Britain to "get on his bike" to find work, while it is immoral for an African man to get in his bike to go after work?

Why is it moral to create poverty where it doesn't exist because it exists somewhere else, as opposed ot preserving the former as a wealthy country so that it can work to erase poverty elsewhere?

     That is what gets me about the open borders argument. No country can afford to take in the whole world. If we try, the only result is that everyone here will be poor too. As citizens electing a representative government, there is nothing wrong with choosing to work to preserve our own relative affluence and engaging in foreign aid as we can afford, just as there is nothing wrong with choosing to feed your own family before feeding other families.
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2016, 07:28:48 PM »

Why is it that only the first order of events matter?

I give a 16 year old boy a horse in a village, and he can use that to plow a field. Is it moral, yes!

The boy then falls off the horse and breaks his legs. Was it a moral decision?


But a few days later that village goes to war, and every one his age except him has to go off and fight? Was it a moral decision now?

You can tie yourself in knots and lose sleep over theoretical discussions of morality all day long, and drive yourself crazy in the process. And worse, if you make policy based on that, drive yourself right to the scaffold and plunge the whole world in chaos.

Leaders and countries have to make decision for what is best for their people. A strong and rich country has the ability to help other countries with charity, invest in other country's infrastructure and buy other countries products. A poor country can do none of those things and frankly, condemning the whole world to poverty in some misguided sense of morality, is probably the most immoral thing you can do.


Lol now I'm convinced you're arguing on bad faith or otherwise can't read.
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