If BRTD lived in Northern Ireland...

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

1. I'd really appreciate a source on that 40% statistic.
2. I'm just trying to get you to understand why somebody would trust their own family more than the culture industry.

Also, you and I know very different types of Jews, but we knew that already.

[they don't love you like i love you]

1. I'd really appreciate a source on that 40% statistic.
2. I'm just trying to get you to understand why somebody would trust their own family more than the culture industry.

Also, you and I know very different types of Jews, but we knew that already.

1. It's from a Pew Survey: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage
According to it, 31.7% of Americans were raised Catholic, and 12.9% claim to have left Catholicism. 12.9/31.7 = 40.7%

2. Your family is one thing. People who just happen to belong to the same ethnic group (and how many Americans' families are only one ethnicity anyway?) as you who may not even live in the same state as your family is a whole other. I'm still not seeing any reason why other Swedish/Germans at church should be even a low priority for me. And I'm sure even you'd agree considering those four that I mentioned (the fact that I basically included two who are "good" and two who are "bad" isn't an accident) to be Catholic in any way on the basis of "culture" even is downright inane.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

1. I'd really appreciate a source on that 40% statistic.
2. I'm just trying to get you to understand why somebody would trust their own family more than the culture industry.

Also, you and I know very different types of Jews, but we knew that already.

1. It's from a Pew Survey: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage
According to it, 31.7% of Americans were raised Catholic, and 12.9% claim to have left Catholicism. 12.9/31.7 = 40.7%

I'm not convinced this demonstrates what you think it demonstrates, because of differences in what one might mean by 'leaving Catholicism'. A lot of formerly-Catholic atheists are dangerously obsessed with their upbringing--with elaborately rejecting it or with overtly trying to substitute other things for it or both--and the Episcopal Church is lousy with people who are there specifically and solely because it's the closest they can get to Catholicism while still having their political standpoints catered to (which is simultaneously the main reason why I'm still there and the main reason why I'm considering leaving). It's certainly true that cultural Catholicism as a strong identifying factor has declined precipitously in recent years but I still think you're reading into the statistic.

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Everybody's family is different, BRTD. (Nice set of examples, by the way! Very well done, very nice spectrum. I'm not being sarcastic.)

[they don't love you like i love you]

1. I'd really appreciate a source on that 40% statistic.
2. I'm just trying to get you to understand why somebody would trust their own family more than the culture industry.

Also, you and I know very different types of Jews, but we knew that already.

1. It's from a Pew Survey: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage
According to it, 31.7% of Americans were raised Catholic, and 12.9% claim to have left Catholicism. 12.9/31.7 = 40.7%

I'm not convinced this demonstrates what you think it demonstrates, because of differences in what one might mean by 'leaving Catholicism'. A lot of formerly-Catholic atheists are dangerously obsessed with their upbringing--with elaborately rejecting it or with overtly trying to substitute other things for it or both--and the Episcopal Church is lousy with people who are there specifically and solely because it's the closest they can get to Catholicism while still having their political standpoints catered to (which is simultaneously the main reason why I'm still there and the main reason why I'm considering leaving). It's certainly true that cultural Catholicism as a strong identifying factor has declined precipitously in recent years but I still think you're reading into the statistic.

Trying to count said atheists as still Catholic is exactly the sort of thing I'm speaking against, and I think you're greatly overestimating the percentage of converts to some other form of Christianity who are Episcopalian. Also my original point was primarily about Millennials, a group for whom "cultural Catholicism" is virtually meaningless. I can assure you that won't find many people who'd call themselves "culturally Catholic" at Bernie Sanders rallies a few months ago or today out walking around catching Pokemon out on the streets.

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Everybody's family is different, BRTD. (Nice set of examples, by the way! Very well done, very nice spectrum. I'm not being sarcastic.)

...once again, people who happen to share ancestry from the same country as you are not your family. You STILL have yet to explain why I should care about if someone has Swedish/German ancestry and seek out to associate with those that do.

Actually you probably saw this on Facebook lately since everyone is resharing it now, THIS is basically what I mean by "the destruction and annihilation of culture". (And how Millennials are now going crazy over it continues to show that Millennials do not care about their heritage or whatever culture they were raised in.)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

1. Formerly-Catholic Episcopalians are the group I'm most familiar with. I try to spend as little time thinking about the thought processes of people who convert from Catholicism to Evangelicalism or Pentecostalism as possible, although this might change because in the fall I'm taking a course on qualitative research methods with someone who specializes in this (in the context of Hispanic groups in Southern California). I'll probably have more to say about those people then.
2. I do in fact know young 'white ethnic' (qua 'white ethnic') Sanders supporters and Pokemon Go players. Mostly Jewish, some Irish--one of my best friends in all the world is a twenty-three-year-old culturally Catholic Irish-American woman! There are fewer of them than there would have been in previous generations, but they exist.
3. Nobody is saying you need to care about that, only understand why (some) other people do.
3a. For many people, people of the same or similar ethnic backgrounds will have grown up eating similar foods, hearing similar types of family stories and fairy tales and lullabies, going to similar types of cultural events--and, yes, churches--et cetera. This is weakening in most of the United States, but still present and still a going concern for many Millennials who are either nostalgic for those aspects of their childhoods, not interested in any of the various generically-white subcultures that are available, or simply not for whatever reason committed to entirely reinventing themselves according to the strictures of their chosen subculture. Would you honestly I rather be a weeaboo than an Italian-American who happens to be interested in Japan?
3b. In a lot of families, there's either a fairly distinct and robust blending of traditions from different sides of the family or a privileging of one side of the family's traditions over others. My maternal family privileges our Italian side because our Ashkenazi side had its cultural memory forcibly repressed by a rogues' gallery of tsars, Ellis Island agents, and early-twentieth-century Western Mass employers (and does that give you any indication of why I might be sensitive about this)? I privilege my maternal family over my Baltimore Irish paternal family because my father was absent for a lot of my childhood. Even if this weren't the case, there'd be a difference between a Northeastern family with a mix of Italian, Jewish, and Irish customs and sensibilities and one that was what a Midwesterner would view as 'generic white'.
4. To my knowledge, none of my friends have shared that video.
5. It occurred to me as I was thinking about this discussion earlier this evening that it's actually incredibly high schoolish to define yourself culturally exclusively or primarily based on what sort of poppular music you like or whatever. I'd say there's something very Frankie Avalon about it, but Frankie Avalon recently wrote something called Frankie Avalon's Italian Family Cookbook, so that doesn't really work. Does that never occur to you?

[they don't love you like i love you]

1. I think you're forgetting that many people who convert don't really convert to anything in particular, "Just Christian - denomination is not important" is a pretty common ID amongst many Americans. Including our current President might I add. And tons of people do convert from Catholicism to essentially that. That's also just how basically every person at an emergent church would identify themselves as. There's a Keith Ellison quote that sums this up (as he currently doesn't identify with any sect or branch of Islam.)

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2. But even your last sentence admits that they are so rare that people like oakvale and belgiansocialist should perhaps not act so shocked that people who aren't like that exist. oakvale once freaked out in IRC over the fact that some churches in the US baptize adults who were already baptized as babies.
3a. I live in South Minneapolis. Japan-obsessed white anime nerds do not faze me or shock me in the slightest. A Millennial Italian-American who actually cares about that aspect of their identity probably would.
3b. One thing the Midwest does have is hordes of mixed Catholic/Lutheran marriages (I'm actually from one myself in terms of upbringing), yet unless someone from one is an actual TJ-like Catholic it's pretty rare to find someone who'll prioritize the Catholic side even if that's what they were raised in. This might have to do with that Lutheranism is actually pretty distinct and associated with the region while Catholicism is simply seen as boring and generic by most people here because it's not. Which is a perfectly understandable explanation even within your parameters, but does kind of kill the idea that Catholicism is just soooo culturally distinct and sticky it always wins out in terms of mixed backgrounds that some have argued and bore once tried to sell me on in AAD.
3c. All the woman pastors and guest speakers I've seen at church have been awesome (we're actually in a five-week series now consisting of five different guest speakers who just happen to all be women) and not allowing them to fulfill the roles they have would be a crime. No amount of "culture" could ever make that up for me. So for that reason alone (there's hordes of others obviously) I could never fit in a Catholic church no matter what my family's ethnic background is.
4. You should watch it anyway.
5a. The music I like can't be defined as "popular" by any rational standard.
5b. It's not just the music. It's a scene that goes far beyond that. In addition to the progressive SJW-style politics I've talked about a lot there's lots of things that are indeed cultural traditions that only people in this subculture would understand at all. Try explaining the significance of colored vinyl to someone outside the scene, or why you'll spend big money on rare out of print records on ebay you could just download for free anyway (often even legally) or why people are willing to host shows in their own houses that they don't make a profit off.
5c. The old night shift supervisor at the CVS store closest to me is someone I've noticed for quite awhile, since she has both of her arms covered in tattoos to her wrists (which is not unusual for here of course), but we've been talking the last couple weeks mostly because I work for a branch of CVS now too and she's recognized me around the neighborhood. But I saw her on the 4th of July weekend at a local fest (basically the Minneapolis scene's biggest event of the year) and we started talking more. Hence she told me this week she's leaving this store, moving to another one and then wrote her name on the back of my receipt so I could add her on Facebook and let me know of some of the upcoming shows she's going to. She's not just someone who rings up my hygiene products and cleaning supplies, this is a big thing we share in common. And it's far more important than whatever her ethnic background is (which based on her last name is at least partially Swedish but that doesn't tell you a whole lot here where just about everyone is mixed.)

[they don't love you like i love you]

1. I think you're forgetting that many people who convert don't really convert to anything in particular, "Just Christian - denomination is not important" is a pretty common ID amongst many Americans. Including our current President might I add. And tons of people do convert from Catholicism to essentially that. That's also just how basically every person at an emergent church would identify themselves as. There's a Keith Ellison quote that sums this up (as he currently doesn't identify with any sect or branch of Islam.)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

2. But even your last sentence admits that they are so rare that people like oakvale and belgiansocialist should perhaps not act so shocked that people who aren't like that exist. oakvale once freaked out in IRC over the fact that some churches in the US baptize adults who were already baptized as babies.
3a. I live in South Minneapolis. Japan-obsessed white anime nerds do not faze me or shock me in the slightest. A Millennial Italian-American who actually cares about that aspect of their identity probably would.
3b. One thing the Midwest does have is hordes of mixed Catholic/Lutheran marriages (I'm actually from one myself in terms of upbringing), yet unless someone from one is an actual TJ-like Catholic it's pretty rare to find someone who'll prioritize the Catholic side even if that's what they were raised in. This might have to do with that Lutheranism is actually pretty distinct and associated with the region while Catholicism is simply seen as boring and generic by most people here because it's not. Which is a perfectly understandable explanation even within your parameters, but does kind of kill the idea that Catholicism is just soooo culturally distinct and sticky it always wins out in terms of mixed backgrounds that some have argued and bore once tried to sell me on in AAD.
3c. All the woman pastors and guest speakers I've seen at church have been awesome (we're actually in a five-week series now consisting of five different guest speakers who just happen to all be women) and not allowing them to fulfill the roles they have would be a crime. No amount of "culture" could ever make that up for me. So for that reason alone (there's hordes of others obviously) I could never fit in a Catholic church no matter what my family's ethnic background is.
4. You should watch it anyway.
5a. The music I like can't be defined as "popular" by any rational standard.
5b. It's not just the music. It's a scene that goes far beyond that. In addition to the progressive SJW-style politics I've talked about a lot there's lots of things that are indeed cultural traditions that only people in this subculture would understand at all. Try explaining the significance of colored vinyl to someone outside the scene, or why you'll spend big money on rare out of print records on ebay you could just download for free anyway (often even legally) or why people are willing to host shows in their own houses that they don't make a profit off.
5c. The old night shift supervisor at the CVS store closest to me is someone I've noticed for quite awhile, since she has both of her arms covered in tattoos to her wrists (which is not unusual for here of course), but we've been talking the last couple weeks mostly because I work for a branch of CVS now too and she's recognized me around the neighborhood. But I saw her on the 4th of July weekend at a local fest (basically the Minneapolis scene's biggest event of the year) and we started talking more. Hence she told me this week she's leaving this store, moving to another one and then wrote her name on the back of my receipt so I could add her on Facebook and let me know of some of the upcoming shows she's going to. She's not just someone who rings up my hygiene products and cleaning supplies, this is a big thing we share in common. And it's far more important than whatever her ethnic background is (which based on her last name is at least partially Swedish but that doesn't tell you a whole lot here where just about everyone is mixed.)

[they don't love you like i love you]

1. I think you're forgetting that many people who convert don't really convert to anything in particular, "Just Christian - denomination is not important" is a pretty common ID amongst many Americans. Including our current President might I add. And tons of people do convert from Catholicism to essentially that. That's also just how basically every person at an emergent church would identify themselves as. There's a Keith Ellison quote that sums this up (as he currently doesn't identify with any sect or branch of Islam.)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

2. But even your last sentence admits that they are so rare that people like oakvale and belgiansocialist should perhaps not act so shocked that people who aren't like that exist. oakvale once freaked out in IRC over the fact that some churches in the US baptize adults who were already baptized as babies.
3a. I live in South Minneapolis. Japan-obsessed white anime nerds do not faze me or shock me in the slightest. A Millennial Italian-American who actually cares about that aspect of their identity probably would.
3b. One thing the Midwest does have is hordes of mixed Catholic/Lutheran marriages (I'm actually from one myself in terms of upbringing), yet unless someone from one is an actual TJ-like Catholic it's pretty rare to find someone who'll prioritize the Catholic side even if that's what they were raised in. This might have to do with that Lutheranism is actually pretty distinct and associated with the region while Catholicism is simply seen as boring and generic by most people here because it's not. Which is a perfectly understandable explanation even within your parameters, but does kind of kill the idea that Catholicism is just soooo culturally distinct and sticky it always wins out in terms of mixed backgrounds that some have argued and bore once tried to sell me on in AAD.
3c. All the woman pastors and guest speakers I've seen at church have been awesome (we're actually in a five-week series now consisting of five different guest speakers who just happen to all be women) and not allowing them to fulfill the roles they have would be a crime. No amount of "culture" could ever make that up for me. So for that reason alone (there's hordes of others obviously) I could never fit in a Catholic church no matter what my family's ethnic background is.
4. You should watch it anyway.
5a. The music I like can't be defined as "popular" by any rational standard.
5b. It's not just the music. It's a scene that goes far beyond that. In addition to the progressive SJW-style politics I've talked about a lot there's lots of things that are indeed cultural traditions that only people in this subculture would understand at all. Try explaining the significance of colored vinyl to someone outside the scene, or why you'll spend big money on rare out of print records on ebay you could just download for free anyway (often even legally) or why people are willing to host shows in their own houses that they don't make a profit off.
5c. The old night shift supervisor at the CVS store closest to me is someone I've noticed for quite awhile, since she has both of her arms covered in tattoos to her wrists (which is not unusual for here of course), but we've been talking the last couple weeks mostly because I work for a branch of CVS now too and she's recognized me around the neighborhood. But I saw her on the 4th of July weekend at a local fest (basically the Minneapolis scene's biggest event of the year) and we started talking more. Hence she told me this week she's leaving this store, moving to another one and then wrote her name on the back of my receipt so I could add her on Facebook and let me know of some of the upcoming shows she's going to. She's not just someone who rings up my hygiene products and cleaning supplies, this is a big thing we share in common. And it's far more important than whatever her ethnic background is (which based on her last name is at least partially Swedish but that doesn't tell you a whole lot here where just about everyone is mixed.)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nuance

I'm too depressed to continue this right now, BRTD.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Just something that I thought of after today when realizing that truth is in most churches a 20something woman with tattoos going completely down both her arms and who wants to preach in a tank top and pre-torn jeans wouldn't be able to speak, so it's great she has one where she was able to have the opportunity....

How is preferring to have a community of mostly Millennials different from one of people of a similar shared ethnic background? After all the reasoning in being able to relate to people more actually applies far more to ages...

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Btw, I meant 'popular music' as distinct from folk music and art music, not as in 'music that is popular'.

I can't think of any productive way to respond to the other points you were making, other than to point out that spending money on rare physical editions of art you could get digital copies of for free is by no means limited to 'the scene'. Neither is hosting live music in your house, believe it or not.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Btw, I meant 'popular music' as distinct from folk music and art music, not as in 'music that is popular'.

Uh, have you ever heard mewithoutYou?

But anyway, a recent realization that I will admit is that my Upper Midwest upbringing did in fact shape a lot of my identity. I don't deny that. However that would be also just as true if I was raised Jewish or Catholic....and it is also true for the vast majority of people raised Jewish or Catholic here.

Also (and I probably should've pointed this out a long time ago) there are tons of Catholics and raised Catholics here that have literally the exact same ancestry proportions that I do. The idea that Catholicism is only tied to some very distinct ethnicities is a premise I've also found downright absurd. While we're at it the name "Tim Kaine" doesn't exactly scream "ETHNIC" either.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Well, yeah, the idea that Catholicism is somehow limited to certain ethnicities is...odd. Was it smilo who was saying a while back that German Catholics aren't 'real Catholics' because you don't think 'Catholic culture' when you think 'Germany'? That was ridiculous.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Well, yeah, the idea that Catholicism is somehow limited to certain ethnicities is...odd. Was it smilo who was saying a while back that German Catholics aren't 'real Catholics' because you don't think 'Catholic culture' when you think 'Germany'? That was ridiculous.

But what separates such a person who leaves the church from a person not raised Catholic? That's why I find premise it's such a distinct identity that no one EVER really drops no matter what they believe to be so silly, and why it's not "like being Jewish" in an oft-made comparison as an actual Jewish ethnicity exists (and if course many people who are ethnic Jews don't view it as the total defining cornerstone of who they are either but that's a whole other point.)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

premise it's such a distinct identity that no one EVER really drops no matter what they believe

...but...I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that?

[they don't love you like i love you]

premise it's such a distinct identity that no one EVER really drops no matter what they believe

...but...I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that?

oakvale and smilo have.

[they don't love you like i love you]

premise it's such a distinct identity that no one EVER really drops no matter what they believe

...but...I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that?

oakvale and smilo have.

seatown just did in IRC.