What do you want this game to become?

[TheWildCard]

I think we really need to make this whole thing more simple.

I remember way back in the old days ballot counting was easy. You didn't need to read an encyclopedia of candidates to know who stood for what.

I think we need to go back to what, IMHO, this game really is supposed to be: A Game to Campaign and be an American Government simulation.

Someone pointed out something very intelligent and very correct. In almost every election it has been a race between Right vs. Left. Preferential voting has never helped anything other than horribly complicate this game and make it even less similar to the real U.S. government.

Allow me now to illustrate the flaw in our Pref. voting system:

Let us assume there is a race between Marvin the Depressed Robot (MDR), George Lucas (GL) and Clint Eastwood (CE).

Let us also assume that 100 people vote.

CE gets 50 first and third preferences
GL gets 50 first and thir preferences
MDR gets 100 second preferences

Marvin has a reason to be depressed here folks! Whilst he is clearly the candidate that a majority of the population would compromise on, sadly, he will get elimenated and have no chance at winning the election. This happens despite the fact that half the population really dislikes George Lucas and Clint Eastwood.

We see this happening today. Harry is winning but from what I have heard if Super or JFK could avoid being elimenated in the first  rounds they would probably win. There are many other problems (Harry pointed out that if he had preferenced King first to get him to the next round he'd have a bigger lead.. Or something to that effect)

My firends, I believe the best thing for us to do is go back to the first around the post system. Then perhaps we could have a run-off between the top two candidates if there are more than 2 in the first place.

Which brings me to my next point. This whole 7 party system with as many candidates as possible or whatever we have is also to blame for this game becoming so complicated. Though it has been nice not being forced to pick between blue and red for awhile I think it disallows real coherent debate between the real two sides of the political spectrum. Also, dies anyone remember the primaries? Some of the best and most interesting things came from those!

As for elected offices keep the ones that in real life actually have a real shot at the Presidency (i.e. Governors and Senators). I would also suggest keeping regions to somehow keep the the classic State vs. Federal government debate alive.

Also I plead with you all do not leave this forum! If you truly want to fix this broken system then stay. Otherwise you're just making it harder for other people who are for reform to get it done.

That is really all I have to say. Thanks for listening to my rant and I hope I've made you think just a little bit about this GAME[/U][/I] that we all have enjoyed playing.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

I couldn't possibly disagree more.  What makes this fun is that it is NOT like American government.  If we did what you wanted, every election would be a choice between Bono and Opebo and those of us in the center would have nothing to say about it.   Well... perhaps not that bad.. but you get the point.

A right vs. left 'battle' would give a pretty significant advantage to the left and those of us with blue avatars would be sent off into the wilderness.

I will remind everyone that this is Dave Leip's atlas forum - not just any ordinary politics site.  This place is all about analysis and the more 'complicated' something is, the more there is to analyze.

[Colin]

I couldn't possibly disagree more.  What makes this fun is that it is NOT like American government.  If we did what you wanted, every election would be a choice between Bono and Opebo and those of us in the center would have nothing to say about it.   Well... perhaps not that bad.. but you get the point.

A right vs. left 'battle' would give a pretty significant advantage to the left and those of us with blue avatars would be sent off into the wilderness.

I will remind everyone that this is Dave Leip's atlas forum - not just any ordinary politics site.  This place is all about analysis and the more 'complicated' something is, the more there is to analyze.

I couldn't agree more.

[TheWildCard]

I couldn't possibly disagree more.  What makes this fun is that it is NOT like American government.  If we did what you wanted, every election would be a choice between Bono and Opebo and those of us in the center would have nothing to say about it.   Well... perhaps not that bad.. but you get the point.

A right vs. left 'battle' would give a pretty significant advantage to the left and those of us with blue avatars would be sent off into the wilderness.

I will remind everyone that this is Dave Leip's atlas forum - not just any ordinary politics site.  This place is all about analysis and the more 'complicated' something is, the more there is to analyze.

First let me say I do respect your opinion. Although, you and I have always had very different reasons for playing this game. I took part in the first election and believe it was by far the best.

But, never the less, lets see how well your stance holds up Don.

1st election
Nym/Harry beats Supersoulty/DemRepDan by a big ole' one vote! May I also point out that neither of these two are like Bono or Opebo.

2nd election
Gustaf/Supersoulty wins... Andt they would have won anyway without preferential voting. And, heck any decent Republican could have beat Nym during that election because he was getting a lot of flack directed at him. (I still have screenshots of polls that show that I could have had a very good chance of winning the Republican primary and beating Nym and last I checked I'm not like Opebo or Bono and neither is Gustaf)

3rd election
PBrunsel/KeystonePhil wins... Yes there we go a true moderate right here! (no offense intended, though PB has always admitted to being a conservative anyway)

4th election
Lewis Trondheim/True Democrat narrowly defeats Al/Siege... With all due respect Lewis and Al are not moderates in my opinion anyway.

5th election
Harry/Ebowed most likely wins... With the only candidate that is more extreme than Harry being KeystonePhil...

I also doubt that if the Blue avatars tried hard enough they'd get defeated everytime. Just look at Presidential Survivor.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

This is not to say that our current system is perfect, but at least it gives moderates a chance.  A primary process would be a death blow.  You should remember that the people who participate now are very different from the people who participated in the first election.  And though Nym and Super weren't extreme, neither would fit the Hugh/Alcon/Gustaf, etc. kind of folk that I want to vote for.

I couldn't possibly disagree more.  What makes this fun is that it is NOT like American government.  If we did what you wanted, every election would be a choice between Bono and Opebo and those of us in the center would have nothing to say about it.   Well... perhaps not that bad.. but you get the point.

A right vs. left 'battle' would give a pretty significant advantage to the left and those of us with blue avatars would be sent off into the wilderness.

I will remind everyone that this is Dave Leip's atlas forum - not just any ordinary politics site.  This place is all about analysis and the more 'complicated' something is, the more there is to analyze.

First let me say I do respect your opinion. Although, you and I have always had very different reasons for playing this game. I took part in the first election and believe it was by far the best.

But, never the less, lets see how well your stance holds up Don.

1st election
Nym/Harry beats Supersoulty/DemRepDan by a big ole' one vote! May I also point out that neither of these two are like Bono or Opebo.

2nd election
Gustaf/Supersoulty wins... Andt they would have won anyway without preferential voting. And, heck any decent Republican could have beat Nym during that election because he was getting a lot of flack directed at him. (I still have screenshots of polls that show that I could have had a very good chance of winning the Republican primary and beating Nym and last I checked I'm not like Opebo or Bono and neither is Gustaf)

3rd election
PBrunsel/KeystonePhil wins... Yes there we go a true moderate right here! (no offense intended, though PB has always admitted to being a conservative anyway)

4th election
Lewis Trondheim/True Democrat narrowly defeats Al/Siege... With all due respect Lewis and Al are not moderates in my opinion anyway.

5th election
Harry/Ebowed most likely wins... With the only candidate that is more extreme than Harry being KeystonePhil...

I also doubt that if the Blue avatars tried hard enough they'd get defeated everytime. Just look at Presidential Survivor.

[JohnFKennedy]

I want this game to be fun again but I think I am in the minority .

[??????????]

I want this game to be fun again but I think I am in the minority .

I agree I would love for this game to become what it was when I was first elected senator. That was some great fun!

[King]

More simpljew.

[TheWildCard]

How many of those people actually won an election? Only Gustaf has. We now see Super going through the same thing Hugh did. And, Alcon never was elected. two out of our three moderate Presidents suceeded to the Presidency, JFK and Alcon, and most likely would not have been able to win in a preferential voting system because candidates like Harry and Keystone still get the most first preferences.

Regarding the primaries, what you say happens. Doesn't change the fact that for the exception of Gustaf (who would have won anyway with or without preferential voting against Nym who most people could have beaten because of the attitude at that time) no moderate has won a Presidential election.

So where are we now? We have a much more complicated system with the same results.

Look I understand that you, and perhaps most of this forum, like this system. You want it to be complex. Good for you. If the majority wants this there is nothing I can do about it other than try to persuade you with the facts. And, those facts are that we are in the same danged place we'd be in a 2 party around the post system.

This is not to say that our current system is perfect, but at least it gives moderates a chance.  A primary process would be a death blow.  You should remember that the people who participate now are very different from the people who participated in the first election.  And though Nym and Super weren't extreme, neither would fit the Hugh/Alcon/Gustaf, etc. kind of folk that I want to vote for.

I couldn't possibly disagree more.  What makes this fun is that it is NOT like American government.  If we did what you wanted, every election would be a choice between Bono and Opebo and those of us in the center would have nothing to say about it.   Well... perhaps not that bad.. but you get the point.

A right vs. left 'battle' would give a pretty significant advantage to the left and those of us with blue avatars would be sent off into the wilderness.

I will remind everyone that this is Dave Leip's atlas forum - not just any ordinary politics site.  This place is all about analysis and the more 'complicated' something is, the more there is to analyze.

First let me say I do respect your opinion. Although, you and I have always had very different reasons for playing this game. I took part in the first election and believe it was by far the best.

But, never the less, lets see how well your stance holds up Don.

1st election
Nym/Harry beats Supersoulty/DemRepDan by a big ole' one vote! May I also point out that neither of these two are like Bono or Opebo.

2nd election
Gustaf/Supersoulty wins... Andt they would have won anyway without preferential voting. And, heck any decent Republican could have beat Nym during that election because he was getting a lot of flack directed at him. (I still have screenshots of polls that show that I could have had a very good chance of winning the Republican primary and beating Nym and last I checked I'm not like Opebo or Bono and neither is Gustaf)

3rd election
PBrunsel/KeystonePhil wins... Yes there we go a true moderate right here! (no offense intended, though PB has always admitted to being a conservative anyway)

4th election
Lewis Trondheim/True Democrat narrowly defeats Al/Siege... With all due respect Lewis and Al are not moderates in my opinion anyway.

5th election
Harry/Ebowed most likely wins... With the only candidate that is more extreme than Harry being KeystonePhil...

I also doubt that if the Blue avatars tried hard enough they'd get defeated everytime. Just look at Presidential Survivor.

[TheWildCard]

JFK, States, King

Thanks for responding I thought I was going to be the only person who believes this game has gotten too complicated and less fun than it was in the past.

[JohnFKennedy]

JFK, States, King

Thanks for responding I thought I was going to be the only person who believes this game has gotten too complicated and less fun than it was in the past.

It would be more fun if you'd voted for me (j/k).

Wildcard, are you on your fourth term as Governor?

[TheWildCard]

JFK, States, King

Thanks for responding I thought I was going to be the only person who believes this game has gotten too complicated and less fun than it was in the past.

It would be more fun if you'd voted for me (j/k).

Wildcard, are you on your fourth term as Governor?

Yeah I am sorry about that bro... Your campaign didn't seem too serious and you were already our best best President so I thought it'd be good to give someone else a chance. No hard feelings I hope.

and yes... Unless the constitutional convention yields a repeal of term limits this will be my final term.

[JohnFKennedy]

JFK, States, King

Thanks for responding I thought I was going to be the only person who believes this game has gotten too complicated and less fun than it was in the past.

It would be more fun if you'd voted for me (j/k).

Wildcard, are you on your fourth term as Governor?

Yeah I am sorry about that bro... Your campaign didn't seem too serious and you were already our best best President so I thought it'd be good to give someone else a chance. No hard feelings I hope.

and yes... Unless the constitutional convention yields a repeal of term limits this will be my final term.

Haha, well, do you want it to repeal the term limit? lol, I was kidding man, no need to apologise . I may run for Governor if you can't, dunno.....

[12th Doctor]

This is just an idea that I am throwing around, please don't let this come back to haunt me, because I'm not endorsing it:

What about a federally madate four party system.  One party represents each quadrant of the political compass (roughly).

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

the Constitutional Union Party reserves the right to represent the right/libertarian quadrant

The problem is that - like the red/blue system - it might lock people into voting their quadrant in all cases and not listening to other points of view.

This is just an idea that I am throwing around, please don't let this come back to haunt me, because I'm not endorsing it:

What about a federally madate four party system.  One party represents each quadrant of the political compass (roughly).

[TheWildCard]

This is just an idea that I am throwing around, please don't let this come back to haunt me, because I'm not endorsing it:

What about a federally madate four party system.  One party represents each quadrant of the political compass (roughly).

Fascist! I'm kidding... I've thought about the same thing. The problem is it sounds totalitarian. Then again this is a game and not real life so it could work.

JFK, States, King

Thanks for responding I thought I was going to be the only person who believes this game has gotten too complicated and less fun than it was in the past.

It would be more fun if you'd voted for me (j/k).

Wildcard, are you on your fourth term as Governor?

Yeah I am sorry about that bro... Your campaign didn't seem too serious and you were already our best best President so I thought it'd be good to give someone else a chance. No hard feelings I hope.

and yes... Unless the constitutional convention yields a repeal of term limits this will be my final term.

Haha, well, do you want it to repeal the term limit? lol, I was kidding man, no need to apologise . I may run for Governor if you can't, dunno.....

Its up to the people If they repeal the term limits and there seems to be decent support I probably would run for Governor yet again.

[Emsworth]

What about a federally madate four party system.  One party represents each quadrant of the political compass (roughly).

While this is certainly an idea we should think about, I like having more choice and freedom in the parties.

[Akno21]

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.

[jokerman]

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.

That would be incredibly boring, though.

[TheWildCard]

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.

That would be incredibly boring, though.

But in so many ways Akno is right. We have a two party system either way, Right vs Left.

True while it could get boring I think primaries would be very exciting. Plus the fact that both sides will go all out to get their guy elected it would be very interesting at times.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You have given an example where IRV is not perfect but no voting system is perfect. I would prefer the flaws of IRV over some candidate being elected with 20% of the vote.

[TheWildCard]

You have given an example where IRV is not perfect but no voting system is perfect. I would prefer the flaws of IRV over some candidate being elected with 20% of the vote.

Well then what about FATP with a runoff if no one gets over 50% of the vote?

[JohnFKennedy]

You have given an example where IRV is not perfect but no voting system is perfect. I would prefer the flaws of IRV over some candidate being elected with 20% of the vote.

Well then what about FATP with a runoff if no one gets over 50% of the vote?

I.E. 2nd Ballot System - what they use in the French presidential election.

[TheWildCard]

You have given an example where IRV is not perfect but no voting system is perfect. I would prefer the flaws of IRV over some candidate being elected with 20% of the vote.

Well then what about FATP with a runoff if no one gets over 50% of the vote?

I.E. 2nd Ballot System - what they use in the French presidential election.

They use it in Louisiana too.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

That's bull.  If anything, we still have a 3-party system: right, left, and center.  Folks like myself have a lot more in commmon with Hugh and Alcon than I do with Jake or Keystone Phil.

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.

That would be incredibly boring, though.

But in so many ways Akno is right. We have a two party system either way, Right vs Left.

True while it could get boring I think primaries would be very exciting. Plus the fact that both sides will go all out to get their guy elected it would be very interesting at times.