What do you want this game to become?
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  What do you want this game to become?
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Poll
Question: Which would you rather see happen in Fantasy Politics?
#1
More Realistic (i.e. more complex like a real Gov't)
 
#2
More Simple (likely would be more fun and easy to pick up)
 
#3
Stay the same as it is now.
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 35

Author Topic: What do you want this game to become?  (Read 2489 times)
TheWildCard
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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2005, 12:49:37 PM »

None of those people have been elected President. And it still comes down between right and left in every election.

That's bull.  If anything, we still have a 3-party system: right, left, and center.  Folks like myself have a lot more in commmon with Hugh and Alcon than I do with Jake or Keystone Phil.

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.
That would be incredibly boring, though.

But in so many ways Akno is right. We have a two party system either way, Right vs Left.

True while it could get boring I think primaries would be very exciting. Plus the fact that both sides will go all out to get their guy elected it would be very interesting at times.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
htmldon
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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2005, 12:53:32 PM »

But Gustaf was elected under PV.  With just reds and blues, we would never have had a moderate President.

None of those people have been elected President. And it still comes down between right and left in every election.

That's bull.  If anything, we still have a 3-party system: right, left, and center.  Folks like myself have a lot more in commmon with Hugh and Alcon than I do with Jake or Keystone Phil.

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.
That would be incredibly boring, though.

But in so many ways Akno is right. We have a two party system either way, Right vs Left.

True while it could get boring I think primaries would be very exciting. Plus the fact that both sides will go all out to get their guy elected it would be very interesting at times.
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TheWildCard
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2005, 12:57:55 PM »

The UAC existed before PV was introduced. As a third party candidate he still would have won the election.

I'm not saying just reds and blues but it still comes down between two parties. In that election Nym was the left's candidate and Gustaf was the right's candidate.

But Gustaf was elected under PV.  With just reds and blues, we would never have had a moderate President.

None of those people have been elected President. And it still comes down between right and left in every election.

That's bull.  If anything, we still have a 3-party system: right, left, and center.  Folks like myself have a lot more in commmon with Hugh and Alcon than I do with Jake or Keystone Phil.

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.
That would be incredibly boring, though.

But in so many ways Akno is right. We have a two party system either way, Right vs Left.

True while it could get boring I think primaries would be very exciting. Plus the fact that both sides will go all out to get their guy elected it would be very interesting at times.
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Peter
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2005, 01:02:52 PM »

Ultimately mandating four or two or other political parties is impossible. People like myself will register as independents, and run as such from non-party Caucuses. Any attempt to enforce this sort of requirement would be ridden with loopholes, and would be totally unenforceable.

A six candidate race under IRV is very complex to be sure, and clearly hasn't worked for us this weekend, but pushing us either directly to two parties or indirectly through FPTP just destroys the ideological diversity.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2005, 01:05:10 PM »

Gustaf was the right's candidate because the right hardly existed.  Today we have lots and lots of extremists who would run off folks like you and I.

The UAC existed before PV was introduced. As a third party candidate he still would have won the election.

I'm not saying just reds and blues but it still comes down between two parties. In that election Nym was the left's candidate and Gustaf was the right's candidate.

But Gustaf was elected under PV.  With just reds and blues, we would never have had a moderate President.

None of those people have been elected President. And it still comes down between right and left in every election.

That's bull.  If anything, we still have a 3-party system: right, left, and center.  Folks like myself have a lot more in commmon with Hugh and Alcon than I do with Jake or Keystone Phil.

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.
That would be incredibly boring, though.

But in so many ways Akno is right. We have a two party system either way, Right vs Left.

True while it could get boring I think primaries would be very exciting. Plus the fact that both sides will go all out to get their guy elected it would be very interesting at times.
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TheWildCard
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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2005, 01:23:20 PM »
« Edited: June 19, 2005, 01:25:03 PM by Governor Wildcard »

Don,

We had StevenNick, Justin and Josh22 then. Now we have Keystone and Jake, and maybe Bono. Before the UAC was created people such as KEmperor, Andrew, Supersoulty and I were the main figures of the party. Considering these would be the type of people who would likely return I see no reason why you or I could not get nominated in such a system.

No matter what it still comes down between right and left. What good is a system that gives you all these choices if they never win? Hugh would have been a good President, Nation would have been a good President, KEmperor would have been a good President, King would have been a good President, Supersoulty would have been a good President. Now I'm not saying that PB, Harry et al were not/ are not going to be good the ideologies we like do not win in this. Unless they were going to win anyway as Gustaf would have in a FATP system.

I know there is probably no way I will change your mind. Just as there is not likely anyway for you to change mine.

Just try to understand where I'm coming from here. We're in the same boat as we were before. The system is more complex than I[/b][/u] personally care for. Plus the result is likely the same in either siutation.
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King
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2005, 01:25:11 PM »

Let's just get rid of the government all together.  A royal family where the line of succession is based on post count and the President changes every month.  Sure we will have President Opebo and Boss Tweed early on...but we will get over it. Tongue
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TheWildCard
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2005, 01:26:57 PM »

Let's just get rid of the government all together.  A royal family where the line of succession is based on post count and the President changes every month.  Sure we will have President Opebo and Boss Tweed early on...but we will get over it. Tongue

What about we just appoint the guy who has won the most consecutive elections running for the same office and spent the most consecutive months serving in that office the King of Atlasia and leave it at that? Tongue
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JohnFKennedy
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2005, 01:27:48 PM »

Let's just get rid of the government all together.  A royal family where the line of succession is based on post count and the President changes every month.  Sure we will have President Opebo and Boss Tweed early on...but we will get over it. Tongue

What about we just appoint the guy who has won the most consecutive elections running for the same office and spent the most consecutive months serving in that office the King of Atlasia and leave it at that? Tongue

Hmmm, if I'd only stayed in the Senate longer that would be me.....lol. Nice try WildCard Tongue.
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Akno21
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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2005, 01:51:06 PM »

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.
That would be incredibly boring, though.

I disagree. The primaries would be worth something now, and the general elections would be better because you'd be able to weed out bad candidates with a primary, though they could obviously run anyway. We had a 2 party system for the first few months, and while I wasn't here then, I've looked through the threads, and I think that time was anything but boring.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2005, 01:53:46 PM »

We had a 2 party system for the first few months, and while I wasn't here then, I've looked through the threads, and I think that time was anything but boring.
I believe that there was a third party for a little while - the Progressive Party.

I don't think it would be appropriate to mandate a two-party system. If voters wish to privately re-create the Democratic and Republican Parties, that's fine, but it should not be a legal requirement.
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TheWildCard
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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2005, 01:55:36 PM »

We need to have a better party structure, whether it be with 2 or 4 parties. However, it all boils down to 2 because liberals would inherintly work with populists and conservatives with libertarians because we are still stuck in the American mindset. We really need to go back to 2 parties. You don't have to be in perfect ideological match with your party.

It will naturally go to 2, politics relies on 2. You vote yea or nay. There are two options on a bill. Everything eventually boils down to making a choice between 2 options. We are still a 2 party system, just refusing to admit it.
That would be incredibly boring, though.

I disagree. The primaries would be worth something now, and the general elections would be better because you'd be able to weed out bad candidates with a primary, though they could obviously run anyway. We had a 2 party system for the first few months, and while I wasn't here then, I've looked through the threads, and I think that time was anything but boring.

From my perspective you are correct. It was very exciting to me in the beginning.

I'm not at all sure if I was a newbie and I came in here now if I would be as interested because its a lot harder to catch on and understand everything now than it was then.
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Akno21
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2005, 01:57:10 PM »

We had a 2 party system for the first few months, and while I wasn't here then, I've looked through the threads, and I think that time was anything but boring.
I believe that there was a third party for a little while - the Progressive Party.

I don't think it would be appropriate to mandate a two-party system. If voters wish to privately re-create the Democratic and Republican Parties, that's fine, but it should not be a legal requirement.

I'm not advocating regulating that.
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Bono
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2005, 02:03:09 PM »

Well, get other vote method instead of damn IRV.
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The Duke
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2005, 02:10:14 PM »

I agree with Wildcard.  This election has disabused me of my previous notions that the best thing we could do is to ban the real life parties.  That was wrong, nonsense on my part, total nonsense.  Its obvious that most voters are partisan hacks who will vote based on avatar no matter what.  Just like on the other boards, you can tell where someone stands based on simple red-blue.

The last three electon winners are PBrunsel, Lewis, and now Harry.  None were the most fit to serve, in my view, compared to the other candidates.

The Fantasy Boards are partisan.  Live with it.  Eventually, Don will get that moderates are screwed no matter what around here as long as people like jfern are allowed to vote.
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JohnFKennedy
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2005, 02:16:19 PM »

Woah woah, hold the phone here a second, I just realised something, this title is called "What do you want this game to become?" - This is a game? Sure don't seem like it Roll Eyes
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Bono
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2005, 02:19:34 PM »

.  Eventually, Don will get that moderates are screwed no matter what around here as long as people like jfern are allowed to vote.

I hope you don't mean what I think you mean.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2005, 02:21:42 PM »

.  Eventually, Don will get that moderates are screwed no matter what around here as long as people like jfern are allowed to vote.

I hope you don't mean what I think you mean.

That depends what you think I mean.
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TheWildCard
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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2005, 02:22:17 PM »

All great comments Ford. Getting rid of the Republicans and Democrats was an experiment and I personally don't like the result.

Woah woah, hold the phone here a second, I just realised something, this title is called "What do you want this game to become?" - This is a game? Sure don't seem like it Roll Eyes

Yes the title was to add perspective to this whole discussion. No matter how you cut it this is a game. I know I have been debating Don but hey its a game we found a problem and need to decide what we're going to do about the it now.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2005, 02:26:48 PM »

One change that could be considered is to end the 72 hour election and go with a 24 hour period.  It would lower turnout, but everyone should take note of voters like sarnstrom and skybridge who don't participate in fantasy politics getting in at the late stages of elections and voting for extreme candidates.

A 24 hour election instead of 72 would cut down on the ability of left and right parties to shuttle in these voters.
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JohnFKennedy
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2005, 02:28:26 PM »

One change that could be considered is to end the 72 hour election and go with a 24 hour period.  It would lower turnout, but everyone should take note of voters like sarnstrom and skybridge who don't participate in fantasy politics getting in at the late stages of elections and voting for extreme candidates.

A 24 hour election instead of 72 would cut down on the ability of left and right parties to shuttle in these voters.

And in this election would've declared me the winner Grin. Haha
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Bono
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2005, 02:28:58 PM »

.  Eventually, Don will get that moderates are screwed no matter what around here as long as people like jfern are allowed to vote.

I hope you don't mean what I think you mean.

That depends what you think I mean.

I hope you don't mean that "people like jfern" should be excluded from voting or something.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2005, 02:31:15 PM »

.  Eventually, Don will get that moderates are screwed no matter what around here as long as people like jfern are allowed to vote.

I hope you don't mean what I think you mean.

That depends what you think I mean.

I hope you don't mean that "people like jfern" should be excluded from voting or something.

I don't.  There's no system that would treat everyone fairly and would exclude people like jfern from votng.  We'll just have to live with the partisanship.  I say embrace the horror, we've got a front row seat for the end of the Forum.
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2005, 02:50:42 PM »

I concur with that idea.

One change that could be considered is to end the 72 hour election and go with a 24 hour period.  It would lower turnout, but everyone should take note of voters like sarnstrom and skybridge who don't participate in fantasy politics getting in at the late stages of elections and voting for extreme candidates.

A 24 hour election instead of 72 would cut down on the ability of left and right parties to shuttle in these voters.
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they don't love you like i love you
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« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2005, 04:00:41 PM »

The reason why "moderates" haven't been succesful is because they aren't moderate.

Who was the moderate in the last election? KEmp? The guy with the economic score more extreme than mine? Who's it this election? Supersoulty, the guy who admits to agreeing with Ann Coulter on much?
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