On-Going Military Coup in Turkey
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  On-Going Military Coup in Turkey
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Author Topic: On-Going Military Coup in Turkey  (Read 11336 times)
ag
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« Reply #300 on: July 17, 2016, 09:35:38 PM »
« edited: July 17, 2016, 09:39:47 PM by ag »

Shyte. Once the military started moving, there was no good ending to this. If they won, they would have been a nasty, ugly, bloody dictatorship. Since they lost, Erdogan will be able to destroy what is left of Turkey´s democracy. This is a real tragedy.

I don't see any reason to believe the military would have instituted a bloody dictatorship.  Their previous coups always restored democracy after a period of time.

Have you checked how many people they killed and tortured in the process?
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #301 on: July 17, 2016, 09:44:31 PM »

Shyte. Once the military started moving, there was no good ending to this. If they won, they would have been a nasty, ugly, bloody dictatorship. Since they lost, Erdogan will be able to destroy what is left of Turkey´s democracy. This is a real tragedy.

I don't see any reason to believe the military would have instituted a bloody dictatorship.  Their previous coups always restored democracy after a period of time.

Have you checked how many people they killed and tortured in the process?

As Kenan Evren (the previous coup leader) said himself about an executed 17-years old: "Should we feed him rather than hang him?"
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Alex
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« Reply #302 on: July 17, 2016, 10:00:32 PM »


On the contrary, it is usually preferable to assassinate the leader if it is impossible to arrest them.

For example the 20 July Plot failed because the plotters failed to assasinate Hitler, and the coup subsequently failed because of this.

Forced suicide is the "best" option
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Cory
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« Reply #303 on: July 17, 2016, 10:15:08 PM »

Have you checked how many people they killed and tortured in the process?

Sometimes these things have to be done for the greater good. Life isn't always pretty and things aren't always perfect.
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ag
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« Reply #304 on: July 17, 2016, 10:32:03 PM »

Have you checked how many people they killed and tortured in the process?

Sometimes these things have to be done for the greater good. Life isn't always pretty and things aren't always perfect.

And what, exactly, was that "greater good", may I inquire? Or am I liable to torture for being so impertinent to ask?
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seb_pard
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« Reply #305 on: July 17, 2016, 10:40:43 PM »

It was very depressing to read this thread and see the low value that democracy and respect for human life have here (especially because many comments came from red avatars). I am no fan of Erdogan (I really hate him) but I can't support a coup and specially a coup from an army with that background (secular but with no respect for democracy or diversity and very nationalistic).

And sincerely, the concept of "greater good" is gross and disturbing.
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ag
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« Reply #306 on: July 17, 2016, 10:43:03 PM »


And sincerely, the concept of "greater good" is gross and disturbing.

It is beyond disturbing. It is criminal.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #307 on: July 17, 2016, 11:56:05 PM »


And sincerely, the concept of "greater good" is gross and disturbing.

It is beyond disturbing. It is criminal.

It's impossible to count millions that were killed because their killers believed they're doing it for greater good.

I understand if one argues that the coup would be better for Turkey than Erdogan (and, surely, Erdogan now is going to cause a lot of damage and I think it will be worse than a successfull coup), but let's not talk about "greater good" here. In most cases it's an open door for terrible things to happen.

Btw, there was no immediate need for coups in both 1960 and 1980.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #308 on: July 18, 2016, 05:51:21 AM »

I strongly support democracy. Turkey was not a democracy before the coup. Turkey is most definitely not going to be a democracy after the coup's failure. Turkey would not have been a democracy right away if the coup succeeded, but might have had a chance of moving toward one.

There was no good choice in this, pretending there was doesn't help matters.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #309 on: July 18, 2016, 07:48:01 AM »

Now Erdogan and his ministers are considering legislation to bring back the death penalty. And furthermore, they want to apply it retroactively in order to execute the coup leaders.

#LifeInADemocracy
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #310 on: July 18, 2016, 08:00:21 AM »

My reaction at the events in Turkey:



But I told you guys already 3-5 years ago what a megalomaniac Islamo-Fascist tool Erdogan was and still is (while posters like Lief, BRTD etc. all backed this douche), so the events right now are no surprise really.

It would have been better if this moron were ousted in the coup, but often things don't work that way.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #311 on: July 18, 2016, 08:05:38 AM »

I strongly support democracy. Turkey was not a democracy before the coup. Turkey is most definitely not going to be a democracy after the coup's failure. Turkey would not have been a democracy right away if the coup succeeded, but might have had a chance of moving toward one.

There was no good choice in this, pretending there was doesn't help matters.

This is very shaky logic. Erdogan isn't a democrat in that he clearly doesn't give a crap about democratic values but the same could be said of many leaders - Chavez, Ortega, Zuma, Orban, Fico, Putin - who nethertheless seem to have a support of the majority of the population in vaguely democratic exercises. In none of these cases do I think a military coup (even it had been carried out by people who aren't halfwits) would help matters. Precedent matters above the military's PR spin, and the precedent of military coups in Turkey is a reversal of democracy and liberalism.

I know it seemed harsh when ufokart compared you to the Argentinian right defending military coups, but they use exactly the same argument the military does here. As they do in Thailand, and in Egypt, and throughout Latin America etc. A flawed democracy is better than a puppet democracy.

Worse because of the military's arrogance they have now polarised Turkish society and emboldened Erdogan's legendary paranoia and megalomania. I wouldn't be surprised if the MHP join up with Erdogan to give him his desired presidential powers, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the HDP is banned on spurious links with the PKK. The military, the Kemalists, the Grey Wolves, IsIS and Erdogan- all sh**tty peas in the same pod.
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« Reply #312 on: July 18, 2016, 08:07:31 AM »

My reaction at the events in Turkey:



But I told you guys already 3-5 years ago what a megalomaniac Islamo-Fascist tool Erdogan was and still is (while posters like Lief, BRTD etc. all backed this douche), so the events right now are no surprise really.

It would have been better if this moron were ousted in the coup, but often things don't work that way.

Uh, I've never liked Erdogan.
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jaichind
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« Reply #313 on: July 18, 2016, 08:22:33 AM »

International markets mostly brushing off the coup.  US equity futures up around 0.1%. Oil down 2% and Gold down 0.6% when one should expect them to rise during periods of international tension.  VIX mostly unchanged.  JPY is down 0.5% when one should expect it to go up as a current haven currency.  TRY which was down as much as 5.5% since friday is now down 2.7% so there is still an impact on Turkey but not the rest of the international markets.  Russian markets are down because the risk to the Bosphorus but most likely also related to the fall in Oil since friday.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #314 on: July 18, 2016, 08:31:21 AM »

This is very shaky logic. Erdogan isn't a democrat in that he clearly doesn't give a crap about democratic values but the same could be said of many leaders - Chavez, Ortega, Zuma, Orban, Fico, Putin - who nethertheless seem to have a support of the majority of the population in vaguely democratic exercises. In none of these cases do I think a military coup (even it had been carried out by people who aren't halfwits) would help matters. Precedent matters above the military's PR spin, and the precedent of military coups in Turkey is a reversal of democracy and liberalism.

I know it seemed harsh when ufokart compared you to the Argentinian right defending military coups, but they use exactly the same argument the military does here. As they do in Thailand, and in Egypt, and throughout Latin America etc. A flawed democracy is better than a puppet democracy.

I don't think the levels of authoritarianism reached under Erdogan is really comparable to any of those examples. The press is relatively free in most of those examples (in some cases it's even virulent against the dominant party/people), whereas it certainly isn't in Turkey. The better comparison would be Russia, and I'd back any attempt to oust Putin (unless it came from the likes of Zhirinovsky) without hesitation. Furthermore, Erdogan's policies are not only endangering democracy at home, they've also had a catastrophic impact on peace and stability in the Middle East, which is not an aspect where things can afford to get any worse than they already are right now.

The precedent of military coups in Turkey suggests that the army might have kept power for a year or two (with varying degrees of brutality, but in light of the international context they probably would not be able to get away with their past degree of brutality), and then relinquish it to civilian authorities. It's certainly not a good outcome, but I fail to see how it would be worse than what Turkey will be getting now.


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All the more reasons to wish the coup has succeeded.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #315 on: July 18, 2016, 08:38:55 AM »

Turkish revival of death penalty would be unacceptable, Austria says

It would be unacceptable for Turkey to reintroduce the death penalty in response to Friday's failed coup, Austrian Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz said in an interview published on Monday before a meeting with his EU counterparts.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Sunday there could be no delay in using capital punishment, which Turkey abolished in 2004, and the government would discuss the measure with opposition parties.

"The introduction of the death penalty would of course be absolutely unacceptable," Kurz said in an interview with Austrian newspaper Kurier.

Turkey has ambitions to join the European Union, but a revival of the death penalty would freeze any discussion of membership.

EU foreign ministers will on Monday urge Erdogan to respect the law and human rights in dealing with defeated coup plotters, but they have limited leverage over their strategic neighbor.

"There must be no arbitrary purges, no criminal sanctions outside the framework of the rule of law and the justice system," Kurz said. "Austria will push at the foreign ministers' meeting ...to set very clear boundaries for Erdogan."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-eu-austria-idUSKCN0ZY0D2?il=0

Kurz continues to be awesome.
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jaichind
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« Reply #316 on: July 18, 2016, 09:10:55 AM »


On the contrary, it is usually preferable to assassinate the leader if it is impossible to arrest them.

For example the 20 July Plot failed because the plotters failed to assasinate Hitler, and the coup subsequently failed because of this.

I agree.  In fact that they failed to shoot down Erdogan adds to the argument that this might have been staged.
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Nhoj
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« Reply #317 on: July 18, 2016, 10:04:10 AM »


On the contrary, it is usually preferable to assassinate the leader if it is impossible to arrest them.

For example the 20 July Plot failed because the plotters failed to assasinate Hitler, and the coup subsequently failed because of this.

I agree.  In fact that they failed to shoot down Erdogan adds to the argument that this might have been staged.
Has the Chinese Gov ever even pulled off something that elaborate? It would be extremely hard to pull off something of this scale if it was just fake .
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jaichind
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« Reply #318 on: July 18, 2016, 10:27:43 AM »

Has the Chinese Gov ever even pulled off something that elaborate? It would be extremely hard to pull off something of this scale if it was just fake .

It would be very hard to pull off.  It might be a weaker of version of a completely staged.  As mentioned before on the thread it might be something like

Erdogan may have allowed this to happen, in order to purge the military and make a grab for absolute power.

From PBS


Consider this forum's obsession with historical parallels:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auspicious_Incident

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Still my main point is that the coup plotters were very foolish not to decapitate the head of the regime as quickly as possible.  This is coup strategy 101 
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Cory
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« Reply #319 on: July 18, 2016, 11:19:35 AM »

It was very depressing to read this thread and see the low value that democracy and respect for human life have here (especially because many comments came from red avatars). I am no fan of Erdogan (I really hate him) but I can't support a coup and specially a coup from an army with that background (secular but with no respect for democracy or diversity and very nationalistic).

And sincerely, the concept of "greater good" is gross and disturbing.

So you wouldn't support a coup from the Germany Army in 1935? Because you "can't support a coup"? Especially from "an army with that background"?

All because something is extralegal doesn't mean it's bad. Life isn't that simple.

And what, exactly, was that "greater good", may I inquire? Or am I liable to torture for being so impertinent to ask?

What is the "greater good" varies from person to person, and from ideology to ideology. But in this case I was referring to my belief that it is for the best that Turkey remain a secular state, even if we have to break a few eggs to make the omelet.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #320 on: July 18, 2016, 12:36:18 PM »

This is very shaky logic. Erdogan isn't a democrat in that he clearly doesn't give a crap about democratic values but the same could be said of many leaders - Chavez, Ortega, Zuma, Orban, Fico, Putin - who nethertheless seem to have a support of the majority of the population in vaguely democratic exercises. In none of these cases do I think a military coup (even it had been carried out by people who aren't halfwits) would help matters. Precedent matters above the military's PR spin, and the precedent of military coups in Turkey is a reversal of democracy and liberalism.

I know it seemed harsh when ufokart compared you to the Argentinian right defending military coups, but they use exactly the same argument the military does here. As they do in Thailand, and in Egypt, and throughout Latin America etc. A flawed democracy is better than a puppet democracy.

I don't think the levels of authoritarianism reached under Erdogan is really comparable to any of those examples. The press is relatively free in most of those examples (in some cases it's even virulent against the dominant party/people), whereas it certainly isn't in Turkey. The better comparison would be Russia, and I'd back any attempt to oust Putin (unless it came from the likes of Zhirinovsky) without hesitation. Furthermore, Erdogan's policies are not only endangering democracy at home, they've also had a catastrophic impact on peace and stability in the Middle East, which is not an aspect where things can afford to get any worse than they already are right now.

The precedent of military coups in Turkey suggests that the army might have kept power for a year or two (with varying degrees of brutality, but in light of the international context they probably would not be able to get away with their past degree of brutality), and then relinquish it to civilian authorities. It's certainly not a good outcome, but I fail to see how it would be worse than what Turkey will be getting now.


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All the more reasons to wish the coup has succeeded.

The Putin example is my point. Maybe if there was some enlightened despot figure in the Russian military they would be worth supporting. But in reality, as you concede, any anti-Putinist figure likely of succeeding winning significant support from the Russian military and business class would be from the ultranationalist side. Similarly, the Turkish military will not provide a friendly liberal democracy. That's why every other coup has not really had any longterm advancements in either democracy or liberalism. The coup habit has kept Turkish democracy in a state of arrested development, constantly unable to mature or be tested through parliamentary means, like a real effective government. (It is also impossible to gloss over the fact these coups aren't just mild authoritarianism - they use state-sponsored terror in a way that somebody like Erdogan (who at least pretends to operate in the democratic sphere) could never do, and I don't see the international context changing their modus operandi).

The point of Erdogan endangering regional security is taken, but I fail to see the military doing a better job seeing as they share the same goal - to suppress any Kurdish movement above all other aims. Like most factional elites in the area not directly under attack, they view Isis more as useful idiots rather than the big enemy. (And if we follow through your logic, then it would to stand to reason that the governments of several western countries should be deposed via coup). Because any coup would cause a complete destabilisation of Turkey, I don't think it would help even if the military were to act benevolently.

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #321 on: July 18, 2016, 01:07:32 PM »

I already conceded that the army winning power wouldn't be by any means a good outcome. I think we simply disagree on whether it would be better or worse than a continued Erdogan rule. I can only note that Erdogan's rule has gotten more and more authoritarian, delusional, and destabilizing as time went on - and the trend is clearly accelerating right now. We don't know exactly what a provisional military government might have looked like, but provided that it handed power back to civilian authorities (which I can hardly imagine it not doing considering the international pressures), I'm reasonably confident it would have been better than what Turkey is soon going to endure.

That coups have crippled Turkish democracy throughout the 20th century is undeniable. That doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't, in this specific case, a risk worth taking.
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Nhoj
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« Reply #322 on: July 18, 2016, 02:35:36 PM »

Interesting guardian article
 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-was-well-planned-and-very-nearly-succeeded-say-turkish-officials?CMP=share_btn_tw

Also this nice image that shows that despite not being fans of edrogan turks do not want military Coups to solve their problems.
]
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rob in cal
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« Reply #323 on: July 18, 2016, 04:25:19 PM »

  Is there a good comprehensive article out there about how the coup was defeated.  I'm wondering which was the key factor in defeating it, loyalist elements in the army, the police, or pro-Erdogan civilians?
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Blue3
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« Reply #324 on: July 18, 2016, 06:16:58 PM »

NATO is threatening to kick Turkey out

EU countries are also threatening to ban Turkey from joining if the death penalty goes through
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