Woman tries to buy birthday cake for her wife...

[jaichind]

No, she should not have to sell them the cake

Of course I would flip around the question: "Woman tries to buy birthday cake for her wife and after agreeing to pay for the cake in question backs out of the transaction upon finding out that the baker is straight and not gay." Should that be allowed ?

[Virginiá]

Look man, I get it.  I suppose gay people should have a constitutional right to convenient fancy deserts just like straight people enjoy.   I still have my issues with the whole thing, but those issues, like the issue itself, are minor.

It's not like they can only discriminate for cakes. What happens when all sorts of other businesses begin doing this?

[afleitch]

No, she should not have to sell them the cake

Of course I would flip around the question: "Woman tries to buy birthday cake for her wife and after agreeing to pay for the cake in question backs out of the transaction upon finding out that the baker is straight and not gay." Should that be allowed ?

That wouldn't happen. Like at all.

[dead0man]

Look man, I get it.  I suppose gay people should have a constitutional right to convenient fancy deserts just like straight people enjoy.   I still have my issues with the whole thing, but those issues, like the issue itself, are minor.

It's not like they can only discriminate for cakes. What happens when all sorts of other businesses begin doing this?

I'd have the same opinion if it's just other luxury goods and services.  If it's something, you know, important, I'll march with you, but we both know that's not going to happen.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No, the government should not force her to sell her the cake.  But as a decent human being (and/or a sane business owner), she should sell her the damn cake and stop Facebook stalking her customers.

[Joe Republic]

No, the government should not force her to sell her the cake.  But as a decent human being (and/or a sane business owner), she should sell her the damn cake and stop Facebook stalking her customers.

Do you believe Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 should exist?  If so, what makes race/national origin more deserving of protection than sexual orientation in today's society?

[Brittain33]

Is this the only place to buy a cake?  And they don't like gay people?  Seems like a perfect business opportunity for someone that isn't a bigot.

If there are only a few gay people in town, it doesn't sound like a "perfect business opportunity" unless you want to charge extortionate prices of gay customers banned from the other bakery. This baker can successfully discriminate without suffering much in the way of consequences.

Why do you assume that only gay people would want to avoid giving their business to an anti-gay bigot?

20+ years' experience as an out gay man watching ineffective boycotts against Cracker Barrel, Exxon, state of South Carolina, etc. and knowing how this issue plays outside of liberal communities. What's your experience?

[Brittain33]

Is this the only place to buy a cake?  And they don't like gay people?  Seems like a perfect business opportunity for someone that isn't a bigot.

If there are only a few gay people in town, it doesn't sound like a "perfect business opportunity" unless you want to charge extortionate prices of gay customers banned from the other bakery. This baker can successfully discriminate without suffering much in the way of consequences.

Except for retaliation by activists.
Their yelp page is now a bunch of unbelievably awful supposed reviews by people who live hundreds of miles away.

Hmm, if any of those reviews are inauthentic the owner can work with Yelp to have them removed. I know some people think that freedom to discriminate should mean freedom to discriminate without any negative consequences; fortunately this is a pretty minor inconvenience compared to what the baker was dishing out, we can agree.

[Figueira]

Gender identity isn't a thing

Take your anti-science bigotry elsewhere.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Is this the only place to buy a cake?  And they don't like gay people?  Seems like a perfect business opportunity for someone that isn't a bigot.

If there are only a few gay people in town, it doesn't sound like a "perfect business opportunity" unless you want to charge extortionate prices of gay customers banned from the other bakery. This baker can successfully discriminate without suffering much in the way of consequences.

Except for retaliation by activists.
Their yelp page is now a bunch of unbelievably awful supposed reviews by people who live hundreds of miles away.

Hmm, if any of those reviews are inauthentic the owner can work with Yelp to have them removed. I know some people think that freedom to discriminate should mean freedom to discriminate without any negative consequences; fortunately this is a pretty minor inconvenience compared to what the baker was dishing out, we can agree.

If I were a business owner I think having a one-star Yelp rating and losing business because people are spreading rumors that your cakes are moldly might qualify as at least as big an inconvenience.   But at least I haven't heard anything about them receiving arson threats like in the Pizza Memories case. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

No, the government should not force her to sell her the cake.  But as a decent human being (and/or a sane business owner), she should sell her the damn cake and stop Facebook stalking her customers.

Do you believe Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 should exist?  If so, what makes race/national origin more deserving of protection than sexual orientation in today's society?

I think Inks defended Dred Scott at some point. Clearly a great legal scholar of our times!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

No, the government should not force her to sell her the cake.  But as a decent human being (and/or a sane business owner), she should sell her the damn cake and stop Facebook stalking her customers.

Do you believe Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 should exist?  If so, what makes race/national origin more deserving of protection than sexual orientation in today's society?

Title II doesn't cover custom bakeries as they are not a public accommodation (unless the shop allows people to eat on premise in which case it would be covered as a restaurant). While some state anti-discrimination laws are more broad in defining "public accommodation", Federal law is not.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Look man, I get it.  I suppose gay people should have a constitutional right to convenient fancy deserts just like straight people enjoy.   I still have my issues with the whole thing, but those issues, like the issue itself, are minor.

It's not like they can only discriminate for cakes. What happens when all sorts of other businesses begin doing this?

I'd have the same opinion if it's just other luxury goods and services.  If it's something, you know, important, I'll march with you, but we both know that's not going to happen.

What's your definition of "luxury goods and services"? Since when is a cake a "luxury good"?

[dead0man]

Since when is cake NOT a luxury good...it's cake.  We remember the (incorrectly translated) phrase "let them eat cake" for a reason.  And not just a "sheet cake from Wal Mart" either.  It's got to be fancy and stacked and what not.

A luxury, to me at least, perhaps I'm wrong or people have different definitions for sh**t, but to me it means any good that isn't a necessity or a staple.  Water, not a luxury.  Milk, not a luxury in the US in 2016.  Sugar, not a luxury.  A car, almost always a luxury.  A shirt, not luxury.  A shirt that costs $50, a luxury.  Sweets, like candies and cakes and what have you, a luxury.

You need water and milk and bread and meat and corn and clothing, you don't need cake or a Snickers.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Since when is cake NOT a luxury good...it's cake.  We remember the (incorrectly translated) phrase "let them eat cake" for a reason.  And not just a "sheet cake from Wal Mart" either.  It's got to be fancy and stacked and what not.

A luxury, to me at least, perhaps I'm wrong or people have different definitions for sh**t, but to me it means any good that isn't a necessity or a staple.  Water, not a luxury.  Milk, not a luxury in the US in 2016.  Sugar, not a luxury.  A car, almost always a luxury.  A shirt, not luxury.  A shirt that costs $50, a luxury.  Sweets, like candies and cakes and what have you, a luxury.

You need water and milk and bread and meat and corn and clothing, you don't need cake or a Snickers.

So...only people who sell water and sugar and cheap shirts should be forbidden from turning people away because they're gay? But car dealerships can almost always turn people away because they're gay?

[dead0man]

I think you're forgetting that I said

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Gay people should be able to buy sh**t as easily as non-gay people.  Luxury or not.  My issues with it, again, are that for the VAST majority of gay people there is going to be a second place to buy your fancy cake or your Ford.  What's the point in forcing money into the bigoted dealership's pocket when there is a dealership down the street with a rainbow flag flying, unicorns in the parking lot and a Village People cover band on stage?  Yes, if you live in BFE Idaho and the Ford dealership refuses to sell you a car, maybe they should be forced to, but in middle of Seattle?  What's the freaking point?  Advertise on your social medias and to your friends that Bigoted Bob's House of Imports refused to sell me a used a Civic because I was wearing a Teegan and Sara shirt.  Contact the local media.  Whatever.  Don't give them money though, it seems so silly to me.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I think you're forgetting that I said

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Gay people should be able to buy sh**t as easily as non-gay people.  Luxury or not.  My issues with it, again, are that for the VAST majority of gay people there is going to be a second place to buy your fancy cake or your Ford.  What's the point in forcing money into the bigoted dealership's pocket when there is a dealership down the street with a rainbow flag flying, unicorns in the parking lot and a Village People cover band on stage?  Yes, if you live in BFE Idaho and the Ford dealership refuses to sell you a car, maybe they should be forced to, but in middle of Seattle?  What's the freaking point?  Advertise on your social medias and to your friends that Bigoted Bob's House of Imports refused to sell me a used a Civic because I was wearing a Teegan and Sara shirt.  Contact the local media.  Whatever.  Don't give them money though, it seems so silly to me.

So a business's right to discriminate is like a bystander problem in your world? As long as there's someone else around to take care of it, it's not really a problem for anybody to deny services? What if there are 10 bakeries in town and 9 of them are homophobic? Should somebody reasonably be expected to have to take a tour of all of them just to find the one that they can go to, that might be located inconveniently, on the other side of town? This is a ridiculous and unworkable standard.

[dead0man]

There is only one gay person in a town with 10 bakeries capable of making fancy wedding cakes?  Seems....impossible.

So a business's right to discriminate is like a bystander problem in your world?

Indeed, just as it is for almost everybody in our great country, no matter which way they like their lover's genitalia.  These cases, unless there are a WHOLE bunch we don't hear about (which I suppose isn't impossible) are rare.  Most gay people (I'm guessing way over 95%) that have gotten married have had no trouble at all getting a wedding cake.  Or maybe they have and I just haven't heard about, seems highly unlikely though.  Again, if it's the only business in town doing the service you need and they refuse, perhaps the govt should get involved....I still don't think the first action should be to call the cops or your lawyer though.


Again, I'm generally on your side here, I just don't think it's that huge of a deal because it doesn't affect that many people, and I feel for those that are affected and think using the govt to fix their problem isn't the worst thing in the world.  So unless you can show me that this happens all the freaking time, I think we're going to have to agree to (mostly) agree.

[afleitch]

There is only one gay person in a town with 10 bakeries capable of making fancy wedding cakes?  Seems....impossible.

So a business's right to discriminate is like a bystander problem in your world?

Indeed, just as it is for almost everybody in our great country, no matter which way they like their lover's genitalia.  These cases, unless there are a WHOLE bunch we don't hear about (which I suppose isn't impossible) are rare.  Most gay people (I'm guessing way over 95%) that have gotten married have had no trouble at all getting a wedding cake.  Or maybe they have and I just haven't heard about, seems highly unlikely though.  Again, if it's the only business in town doing the service you need and they refuse, perhaps the govt should get involved....I still don't think the first action should be to call the cops or your lawyer though.


Again, I'm generally on your side here, I just don't think it's that huge of a deal because it doesn't affect that many people, and I feel for those that are affected and think using the govt to fix their problem isn't the worst thing in the world.  So unless you can show me that this happens all the freaking time, I think we're going to have to agree to (mostly) agree.

How would you know how often it happens? You're not gay. 99 times out if 100 no one talks about it. Do you want gays to carry a diary and record these incidents before you'll consider the impact? Why should we have to twist so much, more than other protected groups, more than people with changeable religious excuses. Why have we a heavier burden of proof?

[SWE]

A car, almost always a luxury. 

[Badger]

deadO, stop talking. You've embarrassed yourself.

[dead0man]

Perhaps.  Not the first time, not the last. 

Apparently it's not a minor problem and happens all the time.  That sucks, and we should be more aware of it.  The 99 out of 100 that don't talk about it (for whatever reason), should be talking about it.