Question for Never Trump Republicans
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Author Topic: Question for Never Trump Republicans  (Read 1845 times)
Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2016, 11:00:32 AM »

I'm going to do something I never thought I would, vote for Clinton because Trump is like a cancer and every action needs to be taken to get rid of it.

Your views are not unique in the Badger State.  WI might have the highest percentage of Clinton Republicans in the nation.
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Erc
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2016, 11:04:48 AM »

Ok, even I realize I sound crazy here.  Switching the avatar, already.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2016, 11:06:37 AM »

Ok, even I realize I sound crazy here.  Switching the avatar, already.

Welcome to the Party! Smiley

Idk, if some militant Trotskyites or something took over the Dems I'd probably stay registered D to vote in primaries as they're closed in PA, but I'd definitely self identify as an independent.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2016, 11:52:28 AM »

Why would you want to identify with a political party where Trump supporters are at least 40 percent of the party?

We can talk about how absolutely despicable Donald Trump and the 44% of Republicans who support him are, but what does that say about the other 56% of Republicans who are willing to share a tent with such people?

We live, unfortunately, in a two party system.  If we all become independents, we give up any say in the shaping of these two parties.  If we all become Democrats, we let Trump and his ilk control half of the national discourse in this country (even if they receive well below half of the vote).

We stick around, we organize, we vote in future primaries, and we vote in the general (mostly for Democrats), until we throw out Trump, everyone who endorsed Trump, everyone who supports Trump, and every single cowardly politician who may privately hate Trump but refuses to speak out against him for reasons of political expediency.

This is the moral test of our generation, and all but a handful of Republican officeholders and candidates have failed it.  So we vote for Democrats and pick up the pieces in 2018.

I do understand how ludicrous this is; if I thought a third party or the destruction of the Republican party were considerably more viable, I would advocate those options instead.

This.  Being an independent is worthless, sorry.

Also, my huge issues with Trump don't in any way warm me to the Democratic Party.  I'm a socially moderate, pro-business Republican who dislikes populism, and - despite what delusional red avatars said here - that view set is comically out of line with the Democratic Party of 2016, too.

Being registered Republican only matters if you live in a closed primary state. Neither of you do.

Besides, registration is different from self identification anyway.

I live in Iowa now, actually.
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Green Line
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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2016, 11:54:17 AM »

IINO Tom ^
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2016, 12:20:47 PM »


K, bro.
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Ljube
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« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2016, 12:59:50 PM »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.

You can loathe Trump and still vote for him, because voting against him is the same thing as shooting your own foot.
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Sbane
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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2016, 01:05:26 PM »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.


Why is that? What will Trump do that keeps America voting Republican?
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Ljube
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2016, 01:22:28 PM »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.


Why is that? What will Trump do that keeps America voting Republican?

Nothing. It's just that the Pubs are shrinking while the Dems are growing. Maxing out whites is the last hope for Pubs. If Trump can't do it, no other Pub can.

Pubs will forever be banned from the Federal Government. And that will create resentment and further decline.
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Sbane
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« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2016, 01:30:59 PM »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.


Why is that? What will Trump do that keeps America voting Republican?

Nothing. It's just that the Pubs are shrinking while the Dems are growing. Maxing out whites is the last hope for Pubs. If Trump can't do it, no other Pub can.

Pubs will forever be banned from the Federal Government. And that will create resentment and further decline.


Or maybe you can stop looking at everything from the prism of a race war? If Republicans just focus on fiscal issues and drop the racial resentment politics, they will do just fine (look at 2014 midterm exit polls).
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Torie
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2016, 01:36:32 PM »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.


Why is that? What will Trump do that keeps America voting Republican?

Nothing. It's just that the Pubs are shrinking while the Dems are growing. Maxing out whites is the last hope for Pubs. If Trump can't do it, no other Pub can.

Pubs will forever be banned from the Federal Government. And that will create resentment and further decline.


Maybe the Pubs are sufficiently non psychotic, that after being slammed in elections for awhile, they will tack in order to become competitive - you know, the way the Tories continually do in the UK, and Labour did with Tony Blair. Successful parties are accommodative enough to build coalitions, rather than drive folks away. Right now, the Pubs are down basically to less educated older whites, and busy inducing Asians to vote the way Hispanics do, with the Pubs eroding with the latter too. It may be too much to ask the bulk of the Pub base to have a adequately functioning conscience, but perhaps over time they might be somewhat interested in self survival. We shall see.

Yes, I know. I am a good example that the harshest critics of an outfit, are those who used to be a part of it, and at some point, just broke the chains, after the level of cognitive dissonance reached a deafening roar.
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Ljube
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« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2016, 01:37:30 PM »
« Edited: July 19, 2016, 01:39:56 PM by Ljube »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.


Why is that? What will Trump do that keeps America voting Republican?

Nothing. It's just that the Pubs are shrinking while the Dems are growing. Maxing out whites is the last hope for Pubs. If Trump can't do it, no other Pub can.

Pubs will forever be banned from the Federal Government. And that will create resentment and further decline.


Or maybe you can stop looking at everything from the prism of a race war? If Republicans just focus on fiscal issues and drop the racial resentment politics, they will do just fine (look at 2014 midterm exit polls).

The Pubs won't do fine. If they lose the presidential election this year, they will also lose the Senate and the Supreme Court.

Hillary Clinton will win re-election easily. Dems might even win the House in 2020. That's curtains for Pubs.
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I Will Not Be Wrong
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2016, 01:39:41 PM »

Hillary is pro free trade, pro immigration. and an internationalist, which are most of my core tenants anyway. I just wish she were pro life and pro gun rights.
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Ljube
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2016, 01:49:21 PM »

We analyzed the Pub predicament four years ago, Torie. Things have only gotten worse for them.

Do we really want a domination of one party in America? Pubs staying in perma opposition, never winning the presidency, holding majority in the Senate occasionally and eventually losing the House?

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Sbane
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2016, 01:52:58 PM »

We analyzed the Pub predicament four years ago, Torie. Things have only gotten worse for them.

Do we really want a domination of one party in America? Pubs staying in perma opposition, never winning the presidency, holding majority in the Senate occasionally and eventually losing the House?



Why are you assuming minorities will always vote Democrat? Especially since the playbook on how the GOP does will with minorities was already written by Rove in 2004. The GOP didn't do well in poor, inner city minority areas in that election. They did do very well in more well off (but not wealthy) suburban/exurban areas with lots of minorities. Riverside, San Bernardino and San Joaquin Counties in California are the perfect example.
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Ljube
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« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2016, 02:02:37 PM »

We analyzed the Pub predicament four years ago, Torie. Things have only gotten worse for them.

Do we really want a domination of one party in America? Pubs staying in perma opposition, never winning the presidency, holding majority in the Senate occasionally and eventually losing the House?



Why are you assuming minorities will always vote Democrat? Especially since the playbook on how the GOP does will with minorities was already written by Rove in 2004. The GOP didn't do well in poor, inner city minority areas in that election. They did do very well in more well off (but not wealthy) suburban/exurban areas with lots of minorities. Riverside, San Bernardino and San Joaquin Counties in California are the perfect example.

As if California is ever gonna be in play. When Dems split, maybe.

Anyway, as sensible Pubs like Torie leave the party, only the kinds of voters who voted Trump in are gonna stay. That guarantees more Trump-like nominees. If Trump loses now, those future Trump-like candidates will lose too.

And if the Pubs went with a fiscal guy, they would lose all poor workers. America is becoming poorer and poorer thanks to Dem administrations. With more people becoming poor, it is logical to assume Dems will have more votes.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2016, 02:10:57 PM »

Hillary is pro free trade, pro immigration. and an internationalist, which are most of my core tenants anyway. I just wish she were pro life and pro gun rights.

Yeah, no she's literally not.
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I Will Not Be Wrong
outofbox6
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2016, 02:14:52 PM »

Hillary is pro free trade, pro immigration. and an internationalist, which are most of my core tenants anyway. I just wish she were pro life and pro gun rights.

Yeah, no she's literally not.
She isn't? Shoot.
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Sbane
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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2016, 02:18:01 PM »

We analyzed the Pub predicament four years ago, Torie. Things have only gotten worse for them.

Do we really want a domination of one party in America? Pubs staying in perma opposition, never winning the presidency, holding majority in the Senate occasionally and eventually losing the House?



Why are you assuming minorities will always vote Democrat? Especially since the playbook on how the GOP does will with minorities was already written by Rove in 2004. The GOP didn't do well in poor, inner city minority areas in that election. They did do very well in more well off (but not wealthy) suburban/exurban areas with lots of minorities. Riverside, San Bernardino and San Joaquin Counties in California are the perfect example.

As if California is ever gonna be in play. When Dems split, maybe.


You don't think similar demographics are in play in other states? You want to write off Riverside County? Good luck ever winning Nevada again. And no, Trump is not going to win Nevada this year. Similar issues with Florida as well. If you lose Florida, you have lost the country. And that's before we even start talking about Arizona.....
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Sbane
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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2016, 02:20:39 PM »

Hillary is pro free trade, pro immigration. and an internationalist, which are most of my core tenants anyway. I just wish she were pro life and pro gun rights.

Yeah, no she's literally not.
She isn't? Shoot.

I can guarantee you she will be more pro-free trade than Trump once she is in office. If you think Obama has done well on free trade, then you will be fine with Clinton in that regard. Trump will be worse.
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Torie
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« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2016, 02:40:46 PM »

We analyzed the Pub predicament four years ago, Torie. Things have only gotten worse for them.

Do we really want a domination of one party in America? Pubs staying in perma opposition, never winning the presidency, holding majority in the Senate occasionally and eventually losing the House?



Why are you assuming minorities will always vote Democrat? Especially since the playbook on how the GOP does will with minorities was already written by Rove in 2004. The GOP didn't do well in poor, inner city minority areas in that election. They did do very well in more well off (but not wealthy) suburban/exurban areas with lots of minorities. Riverside, San Bernardino and San Joaquin Counties in California are the perfect example.

As if California is ever gonna be in play. When Dems split, maybe.


You don't think similar demographics are in play in other states? You want to write off Riverside County? Good luck ever winning Nevada again. And no, Trump is not going to win Nevada this year. Similar issues with Florida as well. If you lose Florida, you have lost the country. And that's before we even start talking about Arizona.....

And then there is NC with a pretty big chunk of educated whites these days, many from the north.
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Torie
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« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2016, 02:47:52 PM »

Hillary is pro free trade, pro immigration. and an internationalist, which are most of my core tenants anyway. I just wish she were pro life and pro gun rights.

Yeah, no she's literally not.
She isn't? Shoot.

I can guarantee you she will be more pro-free trade than Trump once she is in office. If you think Obama has done well on free trade, then you will be fine with Clinton in that regard. Trump will be worse.

A perhaps more pressing question, is who is more likely to set off a most destructive trade war, Hillary or Trump?  Trade wars are the one type of war that is never won by anyone. It is just a matter of who loses least. One of Hillary's virtues, among her many flaws, is that she is cautious. This old man, as he grows ever older, likes persons of caution who have a lot of power. Lack of caution + power is sort of like what happens when you play with matches in a room filled with hydrogen.
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Sbane
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« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2016, 02:56:46 PM »

Hillary is pro free trade, pro immigration. and an internationalist, which are most of my core tenants anyway. I just wish she were pro life and pro gun rights.

Yeah, no she's literally not.
She isn't? Shoot.

I can guarantee you she will be more pro-free trade than Trump once she is in office. If you think Obama has done well on free trade, then you will be fine with Clinton in that regard. Trump will be worse.

A perhaps more pressing question, is who is more likely to set off a most destructive trade war, Hillary or Trump?  Trade wars are the one type of war that is never won by anyone. It is just a matter of who loses least. One of Hillary's virtues, among her many flaws, is that she is cautious. This old man, as he grows ever older, likes persons of caution who have a lot of power. Lack of caution + power is sort of like what happens when you play with matches in a room filled with hydrogen.

Yes, that is what I was thinking off when I said Clinton will be better. Even if Clinton doesn't support TPP when she gets in office, it will be better than a trade war with half the world.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2016, 05:21:44 PM »

Hillary is going to win, and yes she'll be a bad President.  However, Trump is damaging my party beyond repair, and it's plssing me off.  Many of Trump's supporters just want an outlet to be bigots and be proud of it and couldn't care less about the Republican Party.  I will be voting for Johnson.

I love that you insist on calling it "your" party as though you and the ten people who like Jeb! Bush have some birthright to overrule the millions of Trumpists and those who at least view Trump as acceptable.

All you ever do is complain about 99% of what the Republican Party says and does anyway. It's not 1957 anymore - there's no "social elite" status conferred on you by being a Republican.

I'll just leave this here, too, and I direct you to the lobbying section:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Chamber_of_Commerce

The American business community still HEAVILY favors the GOP, and that's not going to change because Trump won a divided field.  Obama and Congressional Democrats especially have been no friends of the COC, and Republican candidates in 2016 will still get more money from the private sector than Democrats all up and down the ballot.

Whatever you want to call these types of Republicans, I'll admit they'll have a fight ahead of them, but they always have; replacing Trumpists with Bush-era religious right types isn't that giant of a development.  These people aren't leaving the GOP - still clearly their natural home, as you're not going to have a Democratic candidate calling for lower taxes and less regulation ANY time soon - and they are CERTAINLY not going to become Democrats.

As much as it bothers Derpist or whatever the hell his name is, groups like the Chamber of Commerce still donate the HUGE majority of their funds to Republicans.  The national mood moving "left" on trade and economics in general does not provide an incentive for the Democrats to move right, as they initiated this leftward shift in the first place!  This future of protectionist and populist Republicans vs. upscale globalist, pro-business Democrats simply isn't going to happen.  Period.
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hopper
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« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2016, 12:31:20 PM »

It seems to me that if you are a Pub who loathes Trump, the only sensible thing to do is vote for Hillary, the idea being that the most effective way to exorcise the Trump demon from the Pub soul, is by his losing by as large a popular vote margin as possible.

Torie, if Trump loses in November, the Pubs will never win a presidential election again. GWB will become a distant memory and Reagan a myth.


Why is that? What will Trump do that keeps America voting Republican?

Nothing. It's just that the Pubs are shrinking while the Dems are growing. Maxing out whites is the last hope for Pubs. If Trump can't do it, no other Pub can.

Pubs will forever be banned from the Federal Government. And that will create resentment and further decline.

Trump did alienate College Educated Whites(without post grad) with this rhetoric about Mexicans especially some White Women. Just look at Pew Research latest polling about the 2016 Presidenial Election. Not every White Person(including me) is gonna vote for him. Not all White People think alike when it has to do with Trump.

I don't believe Republicans will be banned at the Federal Government at all.
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