John Kerry and the Catholic Church

[Gustaf]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You're completely correct. Satan is doing a very good job attacking the Church.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There can only be one Pope at one time. During the Western Schism, there were three Popes claiming the pontiff I believe- Pisa, Rome, and Avignon. The only true Pope was in Avignon, in exile from Rome. Catherine of Siena helped to get the Pope back to Rome. The other ones who claimed the Papacy were nothing more than lay men.

Incest is a sin in the church, as it has been for the longest time. Pope Alexander committing incest, yes, but that doesn't make him fallible on doctrinal issues. All men are fallible, as Romans says (except for Christ, Adam and Eve before original sin, infants, unborn children, and the Virigin Mary), however, the Pope is infallible in proclaiming doctrine.

What do you mean 'claimed the papacy'? All of them were elected by the Cardinals in due course. What made the Avignon one the right one? Especially considering the fact that the Avignon faction lost...and I was talking about John XIII, I think it was. Now, if one is a big-time sinner, how can he at the same time be infallible on doctrinal issues? And since you define dcotrine as what the pope says, it becomes a circle argument...

[KEmperor]

What DOCTRINAL acts have popes commited that were falliable?

There are many, but here is the most commonly known example:  

In 1615 the Pope presided at the inquisition of the man who had invented the telescope, Galileo. The result was that Galileo swore not to teach that the earth is not the center of the universe, in order to keep the Roman Church from taking his life.  It was official church DOCTRINE at that time that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that all celestial bodies like the sun orbited it.  Today, we know that Galileo was right, and Christianity was not threatened in the least by Galileo.

[migrendel]

Well, Brambila, most people understand that there is a distinction between being uncomfortable with something from a moral perspective but still believe in it as a matter of public policy. It's fine for the Catholic Church to hold certain standards of conduct for its members, including John Kerry, but when it attempts to impose its predilections upon a pluralistic society, we are compelled to put the church back in its proper place. I just cannot see a nation of laws metamorphizing into a nation of Papal encyclicals overnight just because Raymond Burke, Justin Rigali, Edward Eagen, Roger Mahoney, and Theodore McCarrick want it to. In addition, I couldn't help but giggle at one of your statements. You called someone offensive when they simply proclaimed that communion is bread, and you were appalled when I compared racial equity to equal rights regardless of sexual orientation, even referring to such an attitude as racist, but are perfectly fine with calling a person disordered based upon anecdotal findings from groups that are not clinically respected, but after all, those groups are liberal. You're simply not an equal opportunity insulter.

[opebo]

I cannot respect a man that does not take his religion seriously. This is one of the reasons I am seriously leaning toward George Bush.

Are you of the Muslim religion, Ali?

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There was contraversy to who really was elected, and who really was a cardinal. But when the reality was shown, it was very clear that the true Pope was elected by true cardinals. It's completely possible to be a big-time sinner and infallible on doctrine. Let me explain better- Doctrine is God's law. It comes from God through scripture, Sacred tradition, and the Church. Yes, Peter had corruption, he was the first pope. Every pope has corruption. But as far as making decisions for the doctrine of the church, they cannot make a corrupt decision.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually, the church neither teaches heliocentricism nor geocentricism. The Church only makes doctrine on salvation, not on science. We don't teach that evolution is true, nor do we teach that it's untrue. And several Popes actually did support Galileo. But the problem was that Galileo couldn't come up with good arguments. He couldn't even refute the Aristilian argument. The Church had just finished the Protestant Revolution, so she was afraid of more problems in the future.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But the Church, being a private organization in the US, has every right to refuse service to Kerry. They can't be forced to give him communion if they know it's wrong. The only person telling them they have to give people communion is God, but God also says not to give it to certain people. Legally, let's look at it like this. Every Church is on private property. If the Church doesn't want Kerry to recieve communion, that's their buisness, not yours.

[KEmperor]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually, the church neither teaches heliocentricism nor geocentricism. The Church only makes doctrine on salvation, not on science. We don't teach that evolution is true, nor do we teach that it's untrue. And several Popes actually did support Galileo. But the problem was that Galileo couldn't come up with good arguments. He couldn't even refute the Aristilian argument. The Church had just finished the Protestant Revolution, so she was afraid of more problems in the future.

Really?  Then why did the church insititute an inquition and then threaten Galileo with execution if he did not comply with spouting the party line?  Of course the church doesn't get invovled with such matters today, but at that time it did.  The church had clear positions on what was and what was not true in certain scientific areas.  It punished those who dared speak otherwise severely.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Notice 19, specifically. "WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN"

It doesn't say what the Church does will be bound in Heaven et cetera, but that what Peter does will be.
But that's just my interpretation.
---
BTW how do you square: Ye cannot serve both God and mammon" with the wealth of the Vatican?

[Ali]

I cannot respect a man that does not take his religion seriously. This is one of the reasons I am seriously leaning toward George Bush.

Are you of the Muslim religion, Ali?

Yeah

[migrendel]

Well, of course we can't make them give John Kerry communion. They have the right under separation of church and state to conduct their masses without government intervention. I would merely suggest that it has an unsalutary effect on the political process and exposes them to ridicule.

[7,052,770]

As a Catholic, i can say that Kerry can and must be given communion and it is utter ridiculousness for anyone to deny it to him.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Huh?

The Church only instituted one Inquisition, and that was the Albigensian Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was done by the Spanish royalty, not the church. I have never heard of any inquisition after that. Yes, they did threaten Galileo. I don't doubt that. But many popes actually did like Galileo, and welcomed him to Rome. Likewise, many popes hated him, and threatened him with death. I don't think there's any evidence of the Church punishing anyone except Galileo (the punishment was truly unjust), as there were both heliocentricists and geocentricists around. It wasn't Catholic teaching that the world was the center of the universe, that was Aristotle's teaching that the Church taught non-doctrinally (as in, scientifically, not theologically). The Church was always a very scientific organization since the time of the Byzantine Empire. So this entire thing between Galileo and the Church had not to do with faith, but with science. Was the world the center of the universe? Galileo said no. Why? Galileo didn't have a lot of evidence to support it. Again, he couldn't even refute Aristotle's argument.

Further, the Church was fairly open minded, especially after the council of trent. She never went around killing people who disagreed with us on scicentific matters. She punished people who preached these, but certainly not the average citizen as you seem to imply. Finally, both Galileo and Copurnicus were extremely devout Catholics. Copurnicus actually listened to the pope who said to stop preaching his beliefs on helicocentricism, and he obeyed. I'm not saying the pope was correct on the matter, but Copurnicus did understand obedience. Though Galileo was also a devout Catholic, he really didn't take obedience very well. It wasn't nessecarily a bad thing, but not very positive into having popes believe him.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

1) Peter was the first Pope. Christ gave Pope the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and there were continuous successors of Peter after him (Linus, Cleus, Sixtus I, et cetera).

2) The Church does have money as in investments in churches, yes. People need Churches. There's over a billion Catholics, remember. As far as revenue and expendures goes, we actually have a spending deficit. In 2001 we recieved $173 million and spent 176 million- a three million dollar deficit. Two years ago we had a 15 million dollar deficit. So really, we're not that wealthy. Yes, the Vatican is very nice, but it's been worked on for over 500 years, so really, it's not surprising.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This has nothing to do with politics. Any Catholic who supports abortion cannot recieve communion lest they go further into mortal sin.

[7,052,770]

I agreed with you, Brambila, until the last paragraph, concerning Kerry.  I don't believe being pro-choice is a sin, but regardless, any priest/bishop/cardinal who will deny someone the Eucharist based on that person's sins should remember that he sins himself.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

[Gustaf]

How many popes lived during the life-time of Galileo? I'm just curious, since you seem to imply that there were lots of them...

[JohnFKennedy]

Galileo was born in 1564 during the reign of Pius IV, then came Pius V in 1566, then Gregory XIII in 1572, then Sixtus V in 1585, then Urban VII in 1590, then Gregory XIV in 1590, then Innocent IX in 1591, then Clement VIII in 1592, then Leo XI in 1605, then Paul V in 1605, then Gregory XV in 1621, then Urban VII in 1623, Galileo died in 1642, during the reign of Urban VII

That is 12 Popes.

[Gustaf]

Galileo was born in 1564 during the reign of Pius IV, then came Pius V in 1566, then Gregory XIII in 1572, then Sixtus V in 1585, then Urban VII in 1590, then Gregory XIV in 1590, then Innocent IX in 1591, then Clement VIII in 1592, then Leo XI in 1605, then Paul V in 1605, then Gregory XV in 1621, then Urban VII in 1623, Galileo died in 1642, during the reign of Urban VII

That is 12 Popes.

We should only count those who were around during the period fo time during which Galileo was an active scientist.

[JohnFKennedy]

Galileo was born in 1564 during the reign of Pius IV, then came Pius V in 1566, then Gregory XIII in 1572, then Sixtus V in 1585, then Urban VII in 1590, then Gregory XIV in 1590, then Innocent IX in 1591, then Clement VIII in 1592, then Leo XI in 1605, then Paul V in 1605, then Gregory XV in 1621, then Urban VII in 1623, Galileo died in 1642, during the reign of Urban VII

That is 12 Popes.

We should only count those who were around during the period fo time during which Galileo was an active scientist.

He began teaching mathematics in 1585, so that is still 9 or possibly 10 popes.

Possibly 10 because I am not sure if Sixtus V was still Pope when he began teaching.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Being pro-choice is a sin, if you didn't know that, you didn't commit any sins, until you know that being pro-choice is a sin and are pro-choice anyway. Abortion is a sin, and to support it is also a sin. In the same way, the holocaust was a sin, and to support it was also a sin. Hitler didn't kill Jews by himself, other people killed them for him. However, Hitler supported the killing of Jews and ordered it, as Kerry supports the killing of unborn children and votes on it. Because Kerry is in such an important position, and is obviously pro-abortion, it is therefore sinful for him to recieve communion.

Thank you Kennedy.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

1) Peter was the first Pope. Christ gave Pope the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and there were continuous successors of Peter after him (Linus, Cleus, Sixtus I, et cetera).

I'm not sure whether or not Peter ever used the word "Pope", but I don't have a problem with him being thought of as the first Pope.
However (according to my interpretation), Jesus did not say that what the Church does will be bound in Heaven etc.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The Vatican cares too much about money and power. A lot of Protestant and Orthodox Churches do as well.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

1) What is a mortal sin?
2) Of course it's political

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, Jesus said that Peter had that power. Peter was the first Pope. The popes after him also had that power.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How? Give me support.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

1) Mortal sin is a deadly sin, a horrible sin that you did with full knowledge of it's consequences, and full knowledge that it's a sin. Murder is a mortal sin. Premarital sex is a mortal sin. Getting high or drunk is a mortal sin. Being in mortal sin is being away from God. When you're in mortal sin, your soul is dead. To get out of mortal sin, you must confess your sins to God through a priest (confession). God then forgives your sins (As Christ said "What sins you forgive are forgiven"). After going to confession, your soul is in a state of Grace, where you're with God and the church. Every time you recieve communion, you get into a state of grace. However, when you recieve communion while in mortal sin, you fall into a deeper sin, as recieveing communion while in mortal sin itself is a mortal sin.

For a better explaination, let's look at it this way. Catholics must fast at least one hour before recieving communion, so that we're physically clean to have christ in our stomachs. Orthodox actually fast for longer I believe. Some rites fast for 24 hours before communion (meaning, you can't eat dinner or lunch on saturday). In addition to being physically clean, more importantly, we must be spiritually clean. All our sin must be washed away by God. Confession is this. It washes away our mortal sins.

Venial sin is a sin that simply displays man's weakness, that we don't do out of full knowledge. Examples would include cussing, getting into an oral fight, et cetera. Venial sins are forgiven everytime you recieve one of the seven sacraments (Baptism, Confession, Communion, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Anointment of the Ill).

2) It's not political. The Church doesn't recognize John Kerry as a political figure, just as a torn away Catholic. HAd kerry not said he was pro-choice, or had he not been so famous, the Church would never have gotten involved.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, Jesus said that Peter had that power. Peter was the first Pope. The popes after him also had that power.

While that makes no sense to me at all, I realise that you would disagree.
I'm fine with other people having different views to me.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How? Give me support. [/quote]

1)The Papal States tried to conquer Italy on numerous occasions.
2)Thithes (sp?)
3)Have you seen what the Vatican and Avignon look like? (BTW there's actually a secret room in Avignon where Mediaeval Popes kept treausure in)
4)The Borgia Popes

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm talking about the current church. I mean, 200 years ago on, everyone tried to conquer everything, especially italy. We look at conquering differently now.

[Gustaf]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm talking about the current church. I mean, 200 years ago on, everyone tried to conquer everything, especially italy. We look at conquering differently now.

You've been claiming that it's teh same church all along though, so it's kind of odd to argue that.  

[KEmperor]

What difference does it make whether it was 200 years ago?  You said that ALL popes are right, even the corrupt ones.

[7,052,770]

You're acting as if being pro-choice means thinking abortion is right.  I don't believe a single pro-choice member of congress [who do make the majorty, btw], believe is abortion is right, nor does anyone on this forum.  It's just a matter of choice.  I would never support anyone's decision to have an abortion, but if a woman decides that, whatever--it's none of my business.  Pro-choice beliefs don't make myself or John Kerry any less of a catholic.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Al said "The Vatican cares too much about money and power." not "the Vatican CARED too much about money and power". I'm REALLY stretching it by saying the past 200 years.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

yes it does. Saying you're pro-choice means you're pro-murder of some kinds of children. It's just as bad as saying you're pro-holocaust. Do you think the Church cares if you're for the CHOICE to kill jews? No. The fact is, you support the killing of Jews. That's sinful enough.