Trump's chances of winning Wisconsin just got lower
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  Trump's chances of winning Wisconsin just got lower
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Author Topic: Trump's chances of winning Wisconsin just got lower  (Read 3688 times)
Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
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« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2016, 08:21:51 AM »

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It's called photo ID. It's not hard to get it, and almost all adults already have it.

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Absolutely, because it is not difficult to get.
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Mallow
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« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2016, 08:33:01 AM »

So basically this argument boils down to Mr. Kenobi's lack of understanding of Venn diagrams (about 150 million citizens of the US were born with a penis, and almost 40 million live in California, so clearly it's easier to be born with a penis than live in California, and all people who live in California should easily be able to be born with a penis! Logic!), and his refusal to acknowledge the (well-documented) point made several times in this thread about the frequent challenges of the poor and disenfranchised to come up with all the documents necessary (let alone the cost) to get their photo ID. Instead he resorts to anecdotes, which are the argumentative equivalent of feelings.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2016, 08:34:52 AM »

Dude. I have ID, but I have never needed it to vote. In fact most countries around the world either have mandatory ID cards anyway or have rules so loopy that they are way looser than any ID law proposed in the states. Or like the UK (and Denmark, New Zealand and Australia) don't require voter ID at all. Can you accept that I know more about how voting works in my country than you do?

And of course it's easy to get. Just like it's easy to pass a literacy test to vote, right?
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swf541
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« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2016, 08:48:00 AM »

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It's called photo ID. It's not hard to get it, and almost all adults already have it.

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Absolutely, because it is not difficult to get.

In rural areas if you cant drive/ are disabled it can be quite difficult to get one.

Thank god Maryland doesnt have these idiotic laws.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2016, 08:55:17 AM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.
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Gass3268
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« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2016, 08:57:29 AM »

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It's called photo ID. It's not hard to get it, and almost all adults already have it.

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Absolutely, because it is not difficult to get.

It is when states like Alabama keep shutting down DMV offices.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2016, 09:00:34 AM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.

Totally agreed.
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« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2016, 09:04:22 AM »

It's because these proposals aren't about fighting vote fraud. That's because very very little vote fraud that photo ID requirements would prevent actually happens.
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KingSweden
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« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2016, 09:08:31 AM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.

Totally agreed.
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Seriously?
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« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2016, 09:18:51 AM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.
But, but, but.... Cemeteries in Crook County disenfranchised!!!
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Sorenroy
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« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2016, 09:37:44 AM »
« Edited: July 20, 2016, 10:13:23 AM by Sorenroy »

Christ, I've helped a friend obtain hers after she lost hers. Took all of about half a day to get it done. I helped drive her to where you need to go. If you're too lazy to get your ID you shouldn't vote. If a dude with a disability can get *HIS* so can you.

Your anecdote totally proves the point we're all trying to make. As kind as it is for you to take time out of your own life to help a friend, not everyone has you. Also, if your working two jobs just to pay for rent and get your kid through school, and the only times the DMV is open is during your work hours, what are you going to do? It's not about being lazy, and as your anecdote proves, it is difficult for someone to get an ID in certain circumstances.

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I don't see you citing any survey.

From your own source:

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Junk Poll!

OK, two things here: 1) Clearly you found the survey (or at least it's results) by looking through the link, 2) The NAACP report from 2008 was supplemental to the findings. In fact of the other surveys they site (not just for one additional question in a later survey) questioned 4,500 and 10,000 people respectively.

Then why did only 185 million people actually vote?

Where are you getting this number from? We have a 2012 results map on this site.

It's good to see that only three percent of white Americans are too lazy to get their photo ID!

We don't even need a law to keep 25 percent of black people voting. Well, all 4 of them that they managed to poll, they found that Cletus didn't get his. It's an epidemic.

Just.... stop.

As others on this thread have said, there is little to no voter fraud being committed around the country, so effectively the half-implimented system right now that forces people to spend time and money to get an ID only functions as a form of mild voter suppression (whether intended or not). If you need an ID to watch an R-rated movie, or buy alcohol, or go to the bank, or anything else: fine, but none of those things are the fundamental rights on which to build our democracy. If you want to make the argument around photo IDs about laziness, so be it, but even then, you still have the right to vote, even if you spend every moment of the rest of your live sitting on the couch watching cable.
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swf541
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« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2016, 09:57:05 AM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.

I'd support that, its a great idea if its mandated to all.
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Coolface Sock #42069
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« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2016, 10:27:39 AM »

Sweet, the DNC outreach program of smokes for votes remains alive and well in Wisconsin!

Same-day registration with no ID. What could possibly go wrong?

Sorry your party's attempt at voter disenfranchisement didn't work out.
Yeah, because using an ID to vote is such an onerous requirement in 2016 where you have to use an ID to buy cigarettes (which Dems can, in turn, give away to induce people to vote), buy alcohol, sign any legal documents, go to the movies, get into a bar, fly, get a discount, open a bank account, etc., etc., etc.

1.Republicans can't do these things as well?

2.Good, if it's not a big deal then lets have the government issue vote card IDs to all people with the full cost paid for by the taxpayer.  After all, none of those things you listed are things that poor people can really afford.

I mean, if this isn't really about disenfranchising people and if some people say they can't afford some of the costs associated with getting an ID, then there really is no reason to oppose this.

Voting, after all, is a Constitutionally protected right.
No, voting is not a constitutionally protected right, and I think most Republicans would be totally fine with having taxpayer-funded IDs if it meant you had to prove citizenship to have one and everyone had to have one to vote.
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JRP1994
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« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2016, 10:28:35 AM »

Sweet, the DNC outreach program of smokes for votes remains alive and well in Wisconsin!

Same-day registration with no ID. What could possibly go wrong?

Sorry your party's attempt at voter disenfranchisement didn't work out.
Yeah, because using an ID to vote is such an onerous requirement in 2016 where you have to use an ID to buy cigarettes (which Dems can, in turn, give away to induce people to vote), buy alcohol, sign any legal documents, go to the movies, get into a bar, fly, get a discount, open a bank account, etc., etc., etc.

1.Republicans can't do these things as well?

2.Good, if it's not a big deal then lets have the government issue vote card IDs to all people with the full cost paid for by the taxpayer.  After all, none of those things you listed are things that poor people can really afford.

I mean, if this isn't really about disenfranchising people and if some people say they can't afford some of the costs associated with getting an ID, then there really is no reason to oppose this.

Voting, after all, is a Constitutionally protected right.
No, voting is not a constitutionally protected right, and I think most Republicans would be totally fine with having taxpayer-funded IDs if it meant you had to prove citizenship to have one and everyone had to have one to vote.

This is true. See: Bush v. Gore opinion
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Mallow
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« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2016, 10:50:43 AM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.

I think most on the "voter ID laws are stupid" side of the argument (myself included) would be all for this, precisely because it wouldn't unfairly disenfranchise poor and minority voters. I agree that this is a no-brainer.
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Wiz in Wis
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« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2016, 11:48:48 AM »
« Edited: July 20, 2016, 11:50:59 AM by Wiz in Wis »

Look, it's not complicated. The idea that voter ID is preventing any significant number of fraudulent votes is based on nothing more than nonsense memes found on right wing websites. Actual voter fraud almost never happens in large enough numbers to affect even local elections, let alone state or federal ones. Add in the fact that elections are largely staffed by volunteers and managed in hundreds of local precincts that vary in how they manage/store ballots, if the GOP was actually worried about the validity of the vote, they would fund more modern equipment, paid poll workers, and standardized voting equipment/procedures.

I did my PhD dissertation on voting laws. Voter ID is entirely, 100% about making it harder for reliable Dem voters from voting. Any suggestion otherwise is partisan nonsense.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/state-failing-on-voter-id-b99694134z1--373569201.html

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/grothman-voter-id-law-will-help-eventual-gop-nominee-win-wisconsin

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/republicans-admit-voter-id-laws-are-aimed-at-democratic-voters.html
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Sorenroy
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« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2016, 12:56:03 PM »

Look, it's not complicated. The idea that voter ID is preventing any significant number of fraudulent votes is based on nothing more than nonsense memes found on right wing websites. Actual voter fraud almost never happens in large enough numbers to affect even local elections, let alone state or federal ones. Add in the fact that elections are largely staffed by volunteers and managed in hundreds of local precincts that vary in how they manage/store ballots, if the GOP was actually worried about the validity of the vote, they would fund more modern equipment, paid poll workers, and standardized voting equipment/procedures.

I did my PhD dissertation on voting laws. Voter ID is entirely, 100% about making it harder for reliable Dem voters from voting. Any suggestion otherwise is partisan nonsense.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/state-failing-on-voter-id-b99694134z1--373569201.html

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/grothman-voter-id-law-will-help-eventual-gop-nominee-win-wisconsin

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/republicans-admit-voter-id-laws-are-aimed-at-democratic-voters.html

I would love to read your dissertation if you have it up somewhere.
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2016, 01:53:14 PM »

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I don't see you citing any survey.

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So it's my job to prove your argument?

From your own source:

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Junk Poll!

There are other surveys mentioned there, including a 2006 NAACP survey where the 25% figure is from. 

I would recommend you be banned, but I guess there is nothing in the rules here against being obtuse or lazy.

By your own argument though, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2016, 01:59:09 PM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.

And issue the voter cards on the basis of universal door to door enumeration conducting once every four or eight years before a Presidential election. 

I know elections are under state laws (although the U.S Supreme Court in ruling in Bush V Gore was apparently not aware of that) but I'd like to think this is something that can be coordinated.  If the states cry poverty, the Federal government can send them the money. 

Universal enumeration apparently costs no more than motor/voter registration and it can give university students jobs after their spring exams but before the start of summer.  (The door to door part enumeration process takes about 2 weeks.)
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2016, 02:00:32 PM »

This issue is so stupid.  As others have said, the government should levy a tax to provide everyone with a free voter ID card and require everyone to show it at the polls in order to vote (while still accepting driver's licenses and passports).  It's amazing this isn't a universally supported idea that literally combat disenfranchisement and fraud at the same time.  Guess some people aren't worried about those two things in reality.
But, but, but.... Cemeteries in Crook County disenfranchised!!!

But, but but... idiotic historic arguments. 
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2016, 02:08:55 PM »
« Edited: July 20, 2016, 02:12:11 PM by Adam T »

Sweet, the DNC outreach program of smokes for votes remains alive and well in Wisconsin!

Same-day registration with no ID. What could possibly go wrong?

Sorry your party's attempt at voter disenfranchisement didn't work out.
Yeah, because using an ID to vote is such an onerous requirement in 2016 where you have to use an ID to buy cigarettes (which Dems can, in turn, give away to induce people to vote), buy alcohol, sign any legal documents, go to the movies, get into a bar, fly, get a discount, open a bank account, etc., etc., etc.

1.Republicans can't do these things as well?

2.Good, if it's not a big deal then lets have the government issue vote card IDs to all people with the full cost paid for by the taxpayer.  After all, none of those things you listed are things that poor people can really afford.

I mean, if this isn't really about disenfranchising people and if some people say they can't afford some of the costs associated with getting an ID, then there really is no reason to oppose this.

Voting, after all, is a Constitutionally protected right.
No, voting is not a constitutionally protected right.

It's not?  Is there something in Republican DNA that you need to lie?

The US Constitution stated in Amendment XV, which was ratified by the states in 1870: "Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

I realize the present Republican Majority Supreme Court may rule otherwise, and I have written here previously that the Constitution says whatever the Supreme Court rules it says, but the words in the 15th Amendment are quite clear, and it's not my fault that the only Amendment Republicans believe should exist is the Second Amendment.

After Hillary Clinton is elected President, and with the fortunate timing of the wonderful death of the vile POS Antonin Scalia (RIH Tony, I can only hope you're going to suffer as much as possible for all eternity) I have no doubt there will be many upcoming rulings on the right to vote that will overturn the rulings of the previous Republican Majority Supreme Court.
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Stockdale for Veep
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« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2016, 02:28:59 PM »

My primary vote was my first election after moving. They not ask to see any id/proof of residence. They did however make me re-do my voter form because I write 7's European style (aka the correct way).

Finally, a white male catches a break.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2016, 12:02:28 AM »

Does anyone think id laws affect results in a movable way?
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2016, 12:30:44 AM »

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'Large portion of society?'

There are over 240 million Americans with a valid driver's license. Only 185 million Americans voted. This is a complete non-issue. And I'm not even counting other forms of valid picture ID.

10% to 15% of the adult citizen population, depending on the state; the percentages are larger in the South for very obvious reasons.

In the Deep South, large pluralities/majorities of those without valid photo IDs are poor & older black voters - at the same time that one-quarter or more of all black adult citizens lack a valid photo ID, so...the notion that "Seriously?" is pushing in a coded fashion (that all black people swing by the liquor store after picking up a pack of smokes and some watermelon, so what's the big deal about showing ID?) is nothing but mere stereotyping.

Also, the assumption you seem to be making here doesn't make the point you seem to think it does: there are millions of people who vote/have voted without ID, and there are millions of people who have ID and don't vote.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2016, 12:47:40 AM »

It's also worth noting that I'd have no problem whatsoever with voter ID if the federal government (which is the only way it'd get done in a uniform and reliable fashion; not because I just love federal government) would take charge and disperse them to every citizen via mail, as some have already suggested.

There is no inherent need for it to be a "photo ID". The only way in which that gets done is to use the pre-existing system of inconvenience (requiring people to visit a government office in order to have their picture taken; costs money, takes up time and requires people who largely don't have driver's licenses to find a way to commute the distance - those are largely the obstacles for many who don't have them currently).

Create a single database that elections officials and precinct workers use to mark off voters as they vote on each Election Day. That ID cannot be used to vote on the same day anywhere else in the United States. It ensures "one person, one vote" is maintained regardless and the propensity for in-person voter fraud isn't going to be any more so than it is today (i.e.: virtually non-existent).

If a voter ID is lost, the likelihood of the person finding it trying to vote with it is so ridiculously low that it's not even worth consideration, and there aren't going to be mass numbers of people trying to generate fake IDs (the genuine IDs can be made with various forms of security/anti-counterfeit measures included quite easily) across dozens or hundreds of precincts and driving to each on Election Day...which would be the only option for widescale fraud by an individual; it's not as if the poll workers wouldn't notice the same person coming into the same precinct multiple times on Election Day trying to vote with different voter IDs.
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