1013 - National Right to Life Act

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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Sponsor: Rep. ClarkKent (F-CT)

some suggestions:
1.  remove rape/incest exception for this late in the pregnancy.  add cases of diagnosis of terminal illness for the fetus/child.  clarify the standard of what is meant by "mother's health"

5. language needs to be cleaned up here at the very least. also I'm not sure I support so long a waiting period given every day the fetus becomes more developed, with potentially more awareness. I question if it is worth it if we are only delaying the abortion.

thoughts?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I meant to make a suggestion on that point as well:  it should be clarified that notification is not required if there is reason to believe the child is a victim of abuse or could suffer abuse as a result of notification.   still I wonder about the rationale for a general rape exception here, where there is not suspected abuse from the parent/guardian.  if a parent is necessary in other cases, to provide for the well-being of their child during this process, I don't know why it wouldn't be here as well.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Nay, though I would like to see this section of the bill improved.  As parents have responsibility for providing for the health and psychological well-being of their children, it makes sense that they would need to know that their child is having an abortion, unless there are particular circumstances where this would be bad for the child.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

amendment:

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[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"with approval of the minor" - do you mean that the guardian ad litem is someone approved by the minor, or that it is optional altogether?  My intent is that there is in all cases a guardian involved, that part I don't support being optional.

"The relevant court must take adequate measures to insure the minor knows of this option." - It would be the responsibility of the abortion provider to provide all information regarding regulations and options. But perhaps that needs to be specified.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I support Shua's admendment but object to Evergreens

which part do you object to?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'll go ahead and enter the amendment as I originally worded it.  We can continue discussing these issues and make further amendments.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Nay

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

amendment

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[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

My primary objections aside, section five is not only unnecessary but also extremely condescending toward women who would almost certainly already know the alternatives to terminating a pregnancy.

All the cosponsors of this bill are male, so I can't say I'm surprised that few here understand how real women think.  But, I would insist there are better ways to encourage adoption than to impose a hardly enforceable, arbitrary waiting period.  No one's going to sit and read a bunch of literature about abortion (which may or may not factual, considering this bill doesn't even identify the source of these "materials" or what's included in them).

So really the only reason it's in the bill is to further inconvenience women.  Which I understand is keeping with the spirit of the bill.

What is it that you know about how real women think that the rest of us supposedly don't?  That they are pure rational actors with perfect knowledge of all possibilities?  Women, like men, can get overwhelmed by their situation and may not recognize everything open to them or how to go about it.  They have surely thought about what their their options are, but that doesn't mean they have the knowledge available to them that would help them to make a truly informed decision. It doesn't hurt to give them the information on how to go about it, because maybe they did not know how, or didn't think they had the resources necessary for it, or were under the false impression that for whatever reason no one would want to adopt their baby.

I don't support lowering the time from 7 days to 36 hours.

What is gained from 7 days as opposed to 36 hours?  Does it make the abortion less likely? Or merely postpone it?

And while we discuss this, can we get the changes to clause 4 made without objections?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

My primary objections aside, section five is not only unnecessary but also extremely condescending toward women who would almost certainly already know the alternatives to terminating a pregnancy.

All the cosponsors of this bill are male, so I can't say I'm surprised that few here understand how real women think.  But, I would insist there are better ways to encourage adoption than to impose a hardly enforceable, arbitrary waiting period.  No one's going to sit and read a bunch of literature about abortion (which may or may not factual, considering this bill doesn't even identify the source of these "materials" or what's included in them).

So really the only reason it's in the bill is to further inconvenience women.  Which I understand is keeping with the spirit of the bill.

What is it that you know about how real women think that the rest of us supposedly don't?  That they are pure rational actors with perfect knowledge of all possibilities?  Women, like men, can get overwhelmed by their situation and may not recognize everything open to them or how to go about it.  They have surely thought about what their their options are, but that doesn't mean they have the knowledge available to them that would help them to make a truly informed decision. It doesn't hurt to give them the information on how to go about it, because maybe they did not know how, or didn't think they had the resources necessary for it, or were under the false impression that for whatever reason no one would want to adopt their baby.

A hell of a lot, obviously, because the decision to terminate a pregnancy is a deeply serious one.  They don't need the state to lecture them about adoption when that choice is already ingrained in our culture, and they certainly shouldn't need a prescribed waiting period to be trusted with their own healthcare decisions and can find information from their own doctors.  At this point, it's not even about protecting life - it's declaring that a woman is incapable of making her own decisions unless the government tells her to "sit and ponder it for a while."  If passed, this bill would make abortion the only medical procedure where government issues the second opinion - even though it is clinics which are best equipped to inform women and provide them assurance, and other social services that give information and resources.

Why should these clinics provide information or resources at all, since apparently the women who show up there already know everything they need to know?  Isn't that patronizing to them to give them information? 

Or do you just have something against information on adoption specifically? 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

My primary objections aside, section five is not only unnecessary but also extremely condescending toward women who would almost certainly already know the alternatives to terminating a pregnancy.

All the cosponsors of this bill are male, so I can't say I'm surprised that few here understand how real women think.  But, I would insist there are better ways to encourage adoption than to impose a hardly enforceable, arbitrary waiting period.  No one's going to sit and read a bunch of literature about abortion (which may or may not factual, considering this bill doesn't even identify the source of these "materials" or what's included in them).

So really the only reason it's in the bill is to further inconvenience women.  Which I understand is keeping with the spirit of the bill.

What is it that you know about how real women think that the rest of us supposedly don't?  That they are pure rational actors with perfect knowledge of all possibilities?  Women, like men, can get overwhelmed by their situation and may not recognize everything open to them or how to go about it.  They have surely thought about what their their options are, but that doesn't mean they have the knowledge available to them that would help them to make a truly informed decision. It doesn't hurt to give them the information on how to go about it, because maybe they did not know how, or didn't think they had the resources necessary for it, or were under the false impression that for whatever reason no one would want to adopt their baby.

A hell of a lot, obviously, because the decision to terminate a pregnancy is a deeply serious one.  They don't need the state to lecture them about adoption when that choice is already ingrained in our culture, and they certainly shouldn't need a prescribed waiting period to be trusted with their own healthcare decisions and can find information from their own doctors.  At this point, it's not even about protecting life - it's declaring that a woman is incapable of making her own decisions unless the government tells her to "sit and ponder it for a while."  If passed, this bill would make abortion the only medical procedure where government issues the second opinion - even though it is clinics which are best equipped to inform women and provide them assurance, and other social services that give information and resources.

Why should these clinics provide information or resources at all, since apparently the women who show up there already know everything they need to know?  Isn't that patronizing to them to give them information? 

Or do you just have something against information on adoption specifically? 

The difference is a doctor is better able to care for and inform their patients than the government is.

Ok then, lets close down all government social services, since the government is so awful at this that even them merely requiring that information about the adoption process or anything else be available at abortion clinics leads to unspecified awful thing.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

okay, fair point on the specificity of it.   I have added to my amendment in order to address this.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

let's go ahead and have a vote on that amendment I offered.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Aye

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Aye