Jon Stewart Has a Message for Trump Supporters

[SillyAmerican]

Not useful or constructive.  His show was already pretty irrelevant by the time he retired due to its drift towards being just partisan leftism.  The Jon Stewart of 2006-2012 could maybe have been an important voice but not the Stewart and the daily show of 12-15.

Agreed. Jon Stewart's irrelevance is massive...

[SillyAmerican]

Over the years, there have been illegal aliens who have been arrested on criminal charges.  Law Enforcement has not routinely checked out issues of immigration status on arrestees, and not every illegal immigrant has an active ICE Warrant to be deported.  Not every illegal immigrant with an ICE Warrant is taken into custody; some are not taken into custody because they have children who are not deportable, so their cases languish.  Some of these folks do, in fact, bond out of jail, then go on to commit more serious offenses. 

Being an "illegal alien" is not a crime, in and of itself.  An illegal alien will not automatically be detained if arrested unless there is some kind of ICE Detainer or Warrant, or if there is a Warrant for the alien having re-entered the US after being deported.  (It IS a felony for a deported alien to re-enter the US after deportation.)

In this context, think of the outrageousness of "Sanctuary Cities".  The officials of these cities have taken oaths to uphold laws, but they are now acting to not enforce laws, including valid, lawful detainers and warrants for the arrest of folks with no lawful authorization to be in the United States.  If we are going to give THESE people a free pass for ignoring laws, then we need to apologize to Ollie North and Scooter Libby.

There have been far too many serious crimes associated with people here in the United States illegally. The whole notion of "Sanctuary Cities" is incredibly destructive/offensive, and needs to be stopped. I was very disappointed in the Senate's recent vote against Kate's law, so much so that I wrote to my two Senators a few weeks back asking for an explanation as to the reasoning behind their casting a vote against it; so far, no word back.

[SillyAmerican]

Over the years, there have been illegal aliens who have been arrested on criminal charges.  Law Enforcement has not routinely checked out issues of immigration status on arrestees, and not every illegal immigrant has an active ICE Warrant to be deported.  Not every illegal immigrant with an ICE Warrant is taken into custody; some are not taken into custody because they have children who are not deportable, so their cases languish.  Some of these folks do, in fact, bond out of jail, then go on to commit more serious offenses. 

Being an "illegal alien" is not a crime, in and of itself.  An illegal alien will not automatically be detained if arrested unless there is some kind of ICE Detainer or Warrant, or if there is a Warrant for the alien having re-entered the US after being deported.  (It IS a felony for a deported alien to re-enter the US after deportation.)

In this context, think of the outrageousness of "Sanctuary Cities".  The officials of these cities have taken oaths to uphold laws, but they are now acting to not enforce laws, including valid, lawful detainers and warrants for the arrest of folks with no lawful authorization to be in the United States.  If we are going to give THESE people a free pass for ignoring laws, then we need to apologize to Ollie North and Scooter Libby.

There have been far too many serious crimes associated with people here in the United States illegally. The whole notion of "Sanctuary Cities" is incredibly destructive/offensive, and needs to be stopped. I was very disappointed in the Senate's recent vote against Kate's law, so much so that I wrote to my two Senators a few weeks back asking for an explanation as to the reasoning behind their casting a vote against it; so far, no word back.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Wait, are you actually trying to claim that the people on this list are not real? Because if the crimes are real, the victims are real, and those charged with the crimes are real, I'm really not sure why anyone would believe the connections to be "mythical"...

[SillyAmerican]

Over the years, there have been illegal aliens who have been arrested on criminal charges.  Law Enforcement has not routinely checked out issues of immigration status on arrestees, and not every illegal immigrant has an active ICE Warrant to be deported.  Not every illegal immigrant with an ICE Warrant is taken into custody; some are not taken into custody because they have children who are not deportable, so their cases languish.  Some of these folks do, in fact, bond out of jail, then go on to commit more serious offenses. 

Being an "illegal alien" is not a crime, in and of itself.  An illegal alien will not automatically be detained if arrested unless there is some kind of ICE Detainer or Warrant, or if there is a Warrant for the alien having re-entered the US after being deported.  (It IS a felony for a deported alien to re-enter the US after deportation.)

In this context, think of the outrageousness of "Sanctuary Cities".  The officials of these cities have taken oaths to uphold laws, but they are now acting to not enforce laws, including valid, lawful detainers and warrants for the arrest of folks with no lawful authorization to be in the United States.  If we are going to give THESE people a free pass for ignoring laws, then we need to apologize to Ollie North and Scooter Libby.

There have been far too many serious crimes associated with people here in the United States illegally. The whole notion of "Sanctuary Cities" is incredibly destructive/offensive, and needs to be stopped. I was very disappointed in the Senate's recent vote against Kate's law, so much so that I wrote to my two Senators a few weeks back asking for an explanation as to the reasoning behind their casting a vote against it; so far, no word back.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Wait, are you actually trying to claim that the people on this list are not real? Because if the crimes are real, the victims are real, and those charged with the crimes are real, I'm really not sure why anyone would believe the connections to be "mythical"...

> drumpfbacke isn't capable of reading past the title
i'm absolutely shocked. shocked, i tell you!

Wrong. Rather, drumpfbacke is incapable of understanding what an article with the premise "newcomers to the U.S. are less likely than the native population to commit violent crimes or be incarcerated" has to do with what we're talking about here. To my way of thinking, a single American citizen murdered by a single individual that is in the country illegally is enough to justify asking questions about why our immigration system allows things like this to happen, and soliciting ideas for ways in which we can prevent it from happening in the future. The government is responsible for keeping its citizens safe; that's a rather baseline requirement. So I provide you a list of instances of people being killed by those here illegally, and you reply with "no worries, the people that are here illegally and are killing Americans, they're not as bad as Americans". Uh, a couple of minor points: (1) they KILLED an AMERICAN CITIZEN, and (2) they are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE. The truly sad thing is that you believe your "no worries..." to be a perfectly reasonable answer. Unbelievable...

[SillyAmerican]

SillyAmerican, love your username.  Very apt.  Listen, pal, your selective outrage is getting really tiresome.  I don't suppose you devote nearly as much energy to caring about the thousands of Americans murdered by their fellow citizens each year because that would entail coming up with solutions to the ubiquity of firearms or an actual way of addressing the poverty and despair that ravages so many communities.  Instead, it's much easier to take off your thinking cap and complain about the comparatively isolated selection of cases where - gasp - an undocumented person committed the crime, exposing the enormous failure of our immigration system for all to see.  In fact, it's almost like we aren't even talking about crime anymore.  No, now we're talking about your obsession with keeping America pure.  And see how tiresome that is?  Not everybody shares your bigoted predilections.  It may be worth keeping that in mind the next time you bother stringing those sentences together again in the vain effort to convince anybody that you are anything other than an ignorant concern troll.

So just to be sure I understand, you're not interested in discussing specific problems with ignorant concern trolls? You'd rather accuse me of having bigoted predilections? Well, here's a question for you: what is my racial background? I mean, you've got all the answers, so go ahead and tell me who it is you think I am, and how it is that I can't make a comment about crime without - gasp - generating an irrational response about anything but crime? So go ahead, explain what you mean by my "obsession with keeping America pure". What ethnicity am I? And why does my bothering to string sentences together to form a cogent argument offend you so badly? You probably should ignore anyone who doesn't agree with your views, that way, pal, you needn't have to worry about being called on to do that somewhat difficult thing called thinking.

[SillyAmerican]

So just to be sure I understand, you're not interested in discussing specific problems with ignorant concern trolls? You'd rather accuse me of having bigoted predilections? Well, here's a question for you: what is my racial background? I mean, you've got all the answers, so go ahead and tell me who it is you think I am, and how it is that I can't make a comment about crime without - gasp - generating an irrational response about anything but crime? So go ahead, explain what you mean by my "obsession with keeping America pure". What ethnicity am I? And why does my bothering to string sentences together to form a cogent argument offend you so badly? You probably should ignore anyone who doesn't agree with your views, that way, pal, you needn't have to worry about being called on to do that somewhat difficult thing called thinking.

I couldn't care less about your background, friend-o, as your views have done the hard work of telling your story for you.

I'm sure you have your own immigrant history - no doubt hard working LAW ABIDING - to fall back on in those times where you feel the need to tout your superiority to others.

Your legalistic, simplistic attitude can only get you so far.  Yes, we understand that you are incapable of thinking beyond "immigrants who aren't even supposed to be here."  You've made that abundantly clear.  And you don't get a free pass because you think you're special, or whatever it is that you're trying to imply.  That doesn't change anything I said and I stand by it 100%.  You're a bigoted simpleton and you've shown that time and time again.

Yup, that's the uncomfortable bottom line: illegal immigrants are people who aren't even supposed to be here. The stating of that simple truth makes me a bigoted simpleton in your eyes? So be it. No, I don't think I'm particularly special, but I do try to avoid judging people that I know nothing about. You might try that sometime, it usually works pretty well for me. And I'm not implying anything, I'm stating it outright: you have no idea what you're talking about. And I stand by that 100%.

[SillyAmerican]

Then who does America belong to?

We the people. (And for the record, those aren't my words, I stole them from somewhere...).

[SillyAmerican]

Yup, that's the uncomfortable bottom line: illegal immigrants are people who aren't even supposed to be here. The stating of that simple truth makes me a bigoted simpleton in your eyes? So be it. No, I don't think I'm particularly special, but I do try to avoid judging people that I know nothing about. You might try that sometime, it usually works pretty well for me. And I'm not implying anything, I'm stating it outright: you have no idea what you're talking about. And I stand by that 100%.

I have no idea what your ethnicity is, and I couldn't care.  But it does bring up an interesting point: Latino (especially Mexican) immigrants who "did it the right way," and "waited their turn to immigrate legally."  They are among the most rabidly anti-illegal people I know.  They also tend to be from the upper crust of Mexico, which is extremely socially stratified.  Their seething disdain for the plebes of their home country is palpable.  There is often, but not always, a skin-color component as well.

This is not to say anything about you, but the "but I'm one of them, so my attitudes are extra-legit" defense is no excuse for classist attitudes.

I agree. but calling someone a "bigoted simpleton" because they dare to point out the serious problem and large number of serious crimes committed against American citizens by those here illegally? That's uncalled for, especially when the person doing the labeling knows nothing about the person being labeled. And yes, I too know a good many people of Mexican heritage who are staunchly pro legal immigration. I suppose they're bigots as well? I don't think my attitudes are extra legit, and I actually welcome legitimate arguments offered in opposition to those attitudes, I really do. But we seem to have reached a point in our 140 character soundbite existence where it's so much easier to call someone you disagree with an "idiot" or a "bigot" than to offer a thoughtful, constructive counter-argument. I'll just leave it at that.

[SillyAmerican]

Then who does America belong to?

We the people. (And for the record, those aren't my words, I stole them from somewhere...).

So why are Trump supporters not part of "We The People"?

Why is it just to Clinton supporters that this country belongs to as many are saying.

This country does not belong to anyone still supporting Clinton either.

No, you're wrong about the country not belonging to Clinton supporters. If it is to mean anything, We The People must include Trump supporters, Hillary supporters, Bernie supporters, Johnson supporters, and Mickey Mouse supporters. It even includes those who couldn't ever be bothered to cast a vote for any of the above. However, this social contract applies solely to citizens of these United States. You want to become a part of We The People and enjoy all that being a member of that group implies? Well, get in line and do what's necessary. As the commercial says, "membership has its privileges"...

[SillyAmerican]

I agree. but calling someone a "bigoted simpleton" because they dare to point out the serious problem and large number of serious crimes committed against American citizens by those here illegally? That's uncalled for, especially when the person doing the labeling knows nothing about the person being labeled. And yes, I too know a good many people of Mexican heritage who are staunchly pro legal immigration. I suppose they're bigots as well? I don't think my attitudes are extra legit, and I actually welcome legitimate arguments offered in opposition to those attitudes, I really do. But we seem to have reached a point in our 140 character soundbite existence where it's so much easier to call someone you disagree with an "idiot" or a "bigot" than to offer a thoughtful, constructive counter-argument. I'll just leave it at that.

I agree that name-calling and personal attacks are uncalled for.  I hope to steer this discussion away from that and towards constructive argument.

On the other point, it's very easy for upper-class Mexicans with economic privilege to be blind to what being jobless and hopeless is like, or what remittances really mean to someone who is trying to keep their family at home from complete destitution.  Those of us who are privileged can never fully comprehend the struggle of others.  It doesn't make them bigoted, but it does make them insensitive.

I have great respect for those who have braved a journey to a foreign country that is hostile to them in order to work hard and build a brighter future.  Yes, they are breaking the laws of our land by coming here illegally, but the onus is on us to create a just and enforceable immigration policy.  Our willful non-enforcement of our own laws is tantamount to invitation, and it's not their fault.

I don't have time to get into the statistics on immigration and crime, but using the bad behavior of some to categorize the entire group is unfair.

I'm inclined to agree with everything you said. However, you don't actually give any suggestions about what we should do to address the problem I brought up. My wife's grandfather was one of those who crossed into the U.S. looking to build a brighter future for his family; he worked extremely hard, and the family is an American success story. So I understand what it is you're talking about. But while I feel for those who come here looking for a better life, I also feel for the families who have to live with the murders of children or siblings or parents, lives that were cut short because we haven't bothered to enforce our own immigration laws. And you're right: it's no one's fault but our own. We've turned a blind eye to our southern border, we've sanctioned the blocking out of "sanctuary cities" (where local officials take great pleasure in thumbing their noses at our federal statutes), and we elect people to the U.S. Senate who are more concerned with "undocumented" residents then they are with their own citizenry. This makes me angry, and I'm not alone. You and others seem to believe that the anger being expressed shows that I'm insensitive, that I somehow slip into believing that everyone here illegally has malicious intent, but nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, much of my anger is directed at those Americans who choose to put blinders on to avoid having to recognize that a problem exists, those Americans who scream "bigoted simpleton", "racist", or "fascist" at anyone crazy enough to point out the problem. I am not using the bad behavior of some to categorize an entire group, I am using the bad behavior of some to highlight the fact that ignoring one problem (an unenforced immigration system) has led to further problems (murders, rapes, etc.), so maybe we need to rethink our approach.

[SillyAmerican]

I'm inclined to agree with everything you said. However, you don't actually give any suggestions about what we should do to address the problem I brought up. My wife's grandfather was one of those who crossed into the U.S. looking to build a brighter future for his family; he worked extremely hard, and the family is an American success story. So I understand what it is you're talking about. But while I feel for those who come here looking for a better life, I also feel for the families who have to live with the murders of children or siblings or parents, lives that were cut short because we haven't bothered to enforce our own immigration laws.

That is a good point.  A regime that encourages mass lawlessness, and a completely chaotic open border, is an invitation to criminals and terrorists.

Building a wall and deporting millions of immigrants is not the solution, and while your rhetoric does not encourage racism, bigotry, hatred, and violence, Donald Trump's does.  If you really want to know what I would like to do about our immigration policy, it would be something like this: open the border and have free movement of people bearing Mexican and American passports.  Mexicans who have the appropriate government documents may come here and get an instant work visa allowing them to live, work, and pay taxes in the Unites States as legal resident aliens.  With documentation.  Without the constant fear of deportation and the exploitation that comes with it.  And those who have lived and worked here for a certain amount of time may apply for full citizenship if that is what they desire.

Now I know that due to American attitudes towards brown-skinned immigrants, this will never, ever happen.  But this is our de facto policy with respect to Mexico anyway.  Except that instead of channeling immigrants through a controlled border in which credentials can be checked and criminals turned away and/or turned over to Mexican authorities, we have immigrants sneaking across, breaking the law, and giving a path to anyone and everyone who wants to get in, for any reason.

There is clearly a demand for immigrant labor, which is why immigrants come here, and why there has been no political will to change the current regime, at least not until now.

Now, my political philosophy as an internationalist Liberal is that we should allow the free movement of people and goods between nations.  That ultimately we will be a better world for it, and people will enjoy greater freedom, prosperity, and democracy.  But this election cycle has proved that there is no room for me on the left or the right.

So you're saying you'd like to open things up like they've done in Europe? How has that been working for countries like Germany or France? And wasn't that one of the chief motivating factors of the Brexit vote? I'd think twice before advocating introducing the same problems here in the U.S.