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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« on: April 23, 2004, 01:02:44 PM »
« edited: April 23, 2004, 03:26:25 PM by John D. Ford »

Today, in Afghanistan, a great American, Pat Tillman, was lost.  He was killed by a mortar round while serving in the 75th Army Rangers Regiment.  He was 27.  Tillman became somewhat famous for joining the Army after 9/11 and foregoing an NFL contract worth $3.6 million offered him by the Arizona Cardinals a year after the 2001 season.  Earlier in that same off-season, he had forgone a $9 million dollar contract from the St. Louis Rams, saying he was happy in Arizona.  Loyalty is something Pat Tillman was apparently good at.

He never gave an interview about his decision to leave the NFL after 9/11, didn't want the special attention.  He just joined up one day, knowing full well what the danger was.

But it wasn't supposed to end like this.  It was supposed to be a story of service and not of sacrifice.  He was supposed to finish his tour of duty later this year, come home, and be a hero.  He could have easily gone back to the NFL and played for another 6 or 7 seasons after he returned.  He was married to his high school sweetheart, and they were supposed to live happily ever after in Paradise Valley.  The things that were supposed to happen didn't happen.  Instead, Pat Tillman met the same fate that too many heroes do, and he made the ultimate sacrifice for what he believed was important.

I think in 100 years, he will be remembered in the same breath as Davy Crockett, men who served and sacrificed for their country.  In the film the Alamo, Davy Crockett's character, played by Billy Bob Thorton, says, "If it was just me, simple old Davy from Tennessee, I might drop over that wall and take my chances.  But that Davy Crockett feller, they're all watching him."  I can't help but think that some Al Qaeda bastard was just hoping to get one shot off against the big hero from Arizona.  If so, that one lone bastard got his wish, to trade his worthless life for the life of a hero, much as Paris killed Achilles in the Iliad.  If this is the case, I hope and believe that every time they kill an American hero, ten more rise in his place.  If they kill them, a hundred more will rise.  America makes a lot of people like Pat Tillman.

We make a lot of soldiers, and cops, and firefighters.  We make a lot of great people who don't get noticed.  I know this because I have lived in America all my life, and inside every American I know there is the ability to be something great.  Pat Tillman found it, the free safety who kept us free, and who stood tallest in a crowd of giants.
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ElCidGOP
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2004, 01:08:26 PM »

Good post, well written.  Tillman is an example of the classic American Patriot.  Unselfish, willing to sacrifice everything for the safety and his country and the world.  A tragedy but a death that will be remembered like you say.  
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2004, 01:11:12 PM »

Sad how it took a famous ex-NFL player for the media to jump on this. You know how many soldiers die and are forgotten? How many people will end up knowing the name of this ex-NFL player versus the many who died for a lie. All we hear is numbers, 11 dead here, 5 dead there.... that is all they are... body bags... no one really gave the others who died a time of day. But when it's am ex-NFL player, it's on the front page of the FOXNEWS website. What he did was noble, don't get me wrong, the point is - what about the rest?
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2004, 01:13:01 PM »
« Edited: April 23, 2004, 03:27:07 PM by John D. Ford »

Those other guys didn't give up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.
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bejkuy
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2004, 01:15:04 PM »

Those other guys didn't giive up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.

A MEN!  

What a man.  A true example of valor and heroism.
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ElCidGOP
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2004, 01:29:27 PM »

Aggrandizing the death of remarkable men who have died for this country is something that is part of the fabric of this nation.  We have done this since the USA was founded and will continue to do this.  

Shapeshifter.  You are obviously a liberal or progressive who sees many things wrong with the Bush administration.  Would I be correct to say that you believe that the Bush administration is lying to us?  If you do, that puts you in with a decent % of democrats.  Is there any chance that you might vote for Ralph Nader as polling data indicates now that 72% of dems disagree with Kerry's position on Iraq.  How do you feel about Kerry and Bush basically having the same position?
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2004, 01:57:14 PM »

Good post, well written.  Tillman is an example of the classic American Patriot.  Unselfish, willing to sacrifice everything for the safety and his country and the world.  A tragedy but a death that will be remembered like you say.  

I give him a month and two, and everyone is going to say ... Tillman who?
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2004, 01:58:18 PM »

Those other guys didn't giive up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.

That does not make him more a hero than those who died poor. Life is Life - no matter how much money you have. Forget about the others who died and are forgotten.
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2004, 01:59:30 PM »

Aggrandizing the death of remarkable men who have died for this country is something that is part of the fabric of this nation.  We have done this since the USA was founded and will continue to do this.  

Shapeshifter.  You are obviously a liberal or progressive who sees many things wrong with the Bush administration.  Would I be correct to say that you believe that the Bush administration is lying to us?  If you do, that puts you in with a decent % of democrats.  Is there any chance that you might vote for Ralph Nader as polling data indicates now that 72% of dems disagree with Kerry's position on Iraq.  How do you feel about Kerry and Bush basically having the same position?


You assume to much and it is obvious that you are very partisan ... you act like the world is going to end if Kerry gets elected. Even I don't think the world is going to blow up if Bush gets re-elected.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2004, 02:44:25 PM »
« Edited: April 23, 2004, 03:28:59 PM by John D. Ford »

Those other guys didn't giive up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.

That does not make him more a hero than those who died poor. Life is Life - no matter how much money you have. Forget about the others who died and are forgotten.

Uh, yeah it does.  A poor person who joins the military to get money for college is a hero, but a  wealthy person who voluntarily gives up a lifelong dream to defend his fellow citizens is an even greater hero.  You keep acting like I don't show respect for other soldiers, but if you read the last line of my opening post, I said, "(Tillman) stood tallest in a crowd of giants."  All are heros, but some deserve special recognition.

My my point is that his motives matter.  If someone sees a kid about to be hit by a bus and pushes the kid out of the way, sacrificing their life, they have done the right thing.  But if the hero is a Christian who has an ulterior motive of getting himself into heaven, he is less heroic to me than an atheist who believes that nothing good awaits him as a reward.  Yet both are doing the right thing and should be acclaimed.

Same here, Tillman did the right thing for absolutely pure motives.  Many in the military did the right thing for mixed motives.  Again, all are heros, but some deserve Special recognition as the bravest of the brave, the greatest of the great.
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dunn
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2004, 03:29:27 PM »

He is a hero


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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 03:45:22 PM »

Those other guys didn't giive up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.

That does not make him more a hero than those who died poor. Life is Life - no matter how much money you have. Forget about the others who died and are forgotten.

Uh, yeah it does.  A poor person who joins the military to get money for college is a hero, but a  wealthy person who voluntarily gives up a lifelong dream to defend his fellow citizens is an even greater hero.  You keep acting like I don't show respect for other soldiers, but if you read the last line of my opening post, I said, "(Tillman) stood tallest in a crowd of giants."  All are heros, but some deserve special recognition.

My my point is that his motives matter.  If someone sees a kid about to be hit by a bus and pushes the kid out of the way, sacrificing their life, they have done the right thing.  But if the hero is a Christian who has an ulterior motive of getting himself into heaven, he is less heroic to me than an atheist who believes that nothing good awaits him as a reward.  Yet both are doing the right thing and should be acclaimed.

Same here, Tillman did the right thing for absolutely pure motives.  Many in the military did the right thing for mixed motives.  Again, all are heros, but some deserve Special recognition as the bravest of the brave, the greatest of the great.

LIFE IS LIFE

I can care less how much a person made!!

To say one person is more of a hero because they sacrificed a lifestyle of riches is a TOTAL DISRESPECT!

Are any of your close families gone to Iraq? Sisters? Brothers? Parents?

Do you know what sacrifice it takes to be away from your family? THAT IS PRICELESS and for you to say this guy was more of a hero than others is DISRESPECT for those who died for our country!

To say, poor people are LESS of a Hero because they joined the Army for money is a TOTAL DISRESPECT. I DARE YOU, to go to ANY recruiter center and tell them that. I bet they would put you in your place!

My sister went to Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other places for 10 years in the Army and she is no LESS of a hero because she is not some ex-NFL player!!! Thank God, She came back alive and well - unlike MANY who did not.

ALL should receive the SAME recognition and no one should receive special treatment. An Army of ONE
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 03:48:26 PM »


So were these :

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html
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dunn
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2004, 03:50:42 PM »

of course, I didn;t say otherwise
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angus
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« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2004, 03:52:07 PM »

Today, in Afghanistan, a great American, Pat Tillman, was lost.  He was killed by a mortar round while serving in the 75th Army Rangers Regiment.  He was 27.  Tillman became somewhat famous for joining the Army after 9/11 and foregoing an NFL contract worth $3.6 million offered him by the Arizona Cardinals a year after the 2001 season.  Earlier in that same off-season, he had forgone a $9 million dollar contract from the St. Louis Rams, saying he was happy in Arizona.  Loyalty is something Pat Tillman was apparently good at.

He never gave an interview about his decision to leave the NFL after 9/11, didn't want the special attention.  He just joined up one day, knowing full well what the danger was.

But it wasn't supposed to end like this.  It was supposed to be a story of service and not of sacrifice.  He was supposed to finish his tour of duty later this year, come home, and be a hero.  He could have easily gone back to the NFL and played for another 6 or 7 seasons after he returned.  He was married to his high school sweetheart, and they were supposed to live happily ever after in Paradise Valley.  The things that were supposed to happen didn't happen.  Instead, Pat Tillman met the same fate that too many heroes do, and he made the ultimate sacrifice for what he believed was important.

I think in 100 years, he will be remembered in the same breath as Davy Crockett, men who served and sacrificed for their country.  In the film the Alamo, Davy Crockett's character, played by Billy Bob Thorton, says, "If it was just me, simple old Davy from Tennessee, I might drop over that wall and take my chances.  But that Davy Crockett feller, they're all watching him."  I can't help but think that some Al Qaeda bastard was just hoping to get one shot off against the big hero from Arizona.  If so, that one lone bastard got his wish, to trade his worthless life for the life of a hero, much as Paris killed Achilles in the Iliad.  If this is the case, I hope and believe that every time they kill an American hero, ten more rise in his place.  If they kill them, a hundred more will rise.  America makes a lot of people like Pat Tillman.

We make a lot of soldiers, and cops, and firefighters.  We make a lot of great people who don't get noticed.  I know this because I have lived in America all my life, and inside every American I know there is the ability to be something great.  Pat Tillman found it, the free safety who kept us free, and who stood tallest in a crowd of giants.

Thanks for posting this moving story.  Patriotic and depressing at the same time.  We will learn of many more such tales, if we continue to choose empire over republic.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2004, 03:54:17 PM »

I didn't just post it, I wrote it.
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angus
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2004, 03:58:35 PM »

Well done.  It has a very patriotic voice.  But seriously, I hope you don't have to write too many more of these stories.
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Giant Saguaro
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2004, 04:18:03 PM »

A great tribute to an American hero; thanks for posting this, John. I remember hearing that being an Army Ranger was something he always wanted to do and when he enlisted he was worried that if he waited too long, he would be beyond the age-cutoff for joining. It was now or never when he signed.

Incredible story.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2004, 04:30:34 PM »

Well done.  It has a very patriotic voice.  But seriously, I hope you don't have to write too many more of these stories.

Me too.
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ShapeShifter
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2004, 04:36:18 PM »

Those other guys didn't giive up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.

That does not make him more a hero than those who died poor. Life is Life - no matter how much money you have. Forget about the others who died and are forgotten.

Uh, yeah it does.  A poor person who joins the military to get money for college is a hero, but a  wealthy person who voluntarily gives up a lifelong dream to defend his fellow citizens is an even greater hero.

Am I the only one who thinks this is so disrespectful?
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2004, 04:46:30 PM »
« Edited: April 23, 2004, 04:48:54 PM by John D. Ford »

I'll start a poll to find out.

I never said that other soldiers weren't heroes.  Stop implying that I did, its dishonest.

If I had infinite time, I'd write 700 posts for the nearly 700 soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Instead, I tried to write something that I thought highlighted the debt we owe to our soldiers by finding the most high profile personification of sacrifice in this war so far.  Tillman probably gave up more for his country than anyone else has in the war, he deserves to be rememebered, in my view.

I had hoped that the sacrifice of others could also be seen through Tillman's story, and if I have failed to communicate that it hopefully is a failure as a writer, not a person.

I thank angus, dunn, and ElCid for their kind words about my piece.  I especially thank bejkuy, who did serve in uniform, and his approval meant the most to me.
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Nation
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2004, 04:48:08 PM »
« Edited: April 23, 2004, 04:49:31 PM by of_thisnation »

Those other guys didn't giive up nearly $4 million dollars to go get shot at.  They are all heroes, but Tillman knew he was making a HUGE sacrifice even if he lived.

That does not make him more a hero than those who died poor. Life is Life - no matter how much money you have. Forget about the others who died and are forgotten.

Uh, yeah it does.  A poor person who joins the military to get money for college is a hero, but a  wealthy person who voluntarily gives up a lifelong dream to defend his fellow citizens is an even greater hero.

Am I the only one who thinks this is so disrespectful?

No, you're not. Every one of those soldiers gave up things incredibly dear to them, including family, spouses, and children. Just cause a football player was killed (as sad as the death of any soldier/civillian is) it doesn't make him deserve any more recognition, and I wish the media wouldn't hop on it. That's all I'm going to say on this.
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ElCidGOP
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2004, 08:17:52 PM »

John D. Ford,
Don't let these people bother you with their opinions.  You gotta expect that around here.  Heroes are a part of American tradition.  No normal person would actually believe that your post is disrespectful.  There is alot of hatred in the hearts of some of those on the left and this hate manifests itself in many ways.  I will leave it at that but I could write alot more about how the leftists truly long to see America to lose this war.

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ElCidGOP
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2004, 08:18:37 PM »

RANGER CREED

Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers.

Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.

Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.

Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.

Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.

Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.

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TheWildCard
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2004, 03:11:48 AM »

They are all great men who have died while defending our freedoms... But as others have said there is a difference between a man who goes into the military because they need to and a man who goes into the military because he wants to... Its not that one man is more of a hero then another, its not that one of the men is a better man then the other, its because one case is much less common then the other thats why it makes a difference, thats why its a story.

Thats my two cents anyway

Thank you for your fine post John D. Ford.
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