Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails
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Author Topic: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails  (Read 7046 times)
Averroës Nix
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« Reply #125 on: July 27, 2016, 03:27:28 PM »

I think he was joking. Just the press doesn't get it. Big Don has just a great sense of humor.

This sums it up.

I think that many of the conniptions that we are seeing here, as well as from those in the mainstream media, are a product of people who are genuinely disturbed by what Trump is doing. And it should be extremely disturbing for those of us who care about the quality of political discourse in this country.

The thing is, that does not mean that Trump is actually in cahoots with Putin. And when prospective members of what we might call the "Trumpenproletariat" hear accusations to that effect, they are not inclined to believe them. Instead, they interpret these warnings as disingenuous, and yet another reason to feel alienated from the mainstream politicians and media figures who espouse them.

We would be in a much less disturbing place as a country if Russian interference were the best explanation for Trump's success. What we have experienced over the past year, however, points to other factors. Besides, who would choose an actor as unpredictable, even irrational, as Trump is, as his pawn? Do we really think that Putin is capable of influencing him in a way that yields predictable benefits for him?
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Averroës Nix
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« Reply #126 on: July 27, 2016, 03:33:57 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #127 on: July 27, 2016, 03:34:22 PM »

I'm not suggesting that he's in cahoots with Putin. But what's clear is that Putin is backing him, and it should leave people wondering why he is. It's not often that Putin's goals are compatible with those of the American people.


what we might call the "Trumpenproletariat"

let's not though
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Oakvale
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« Reply #128 on: July 27, 2016, 03:34:54 PM »

Not sure why people are talking about how this will poll or whatever when it's plain that electing Trump would be the greatest gift to Russian imperialism since Churchill and Roosevelt were duped at Yalta. Does that not matter?

I think he was joking. Just the press doesn't get it. Big Don has just a great sense of humor.

This sums it up.

I think that many of the conniptions that we are seeing here, as well as from those in the mainstream media, are a product of people who are genuinely disturbed by what Trump is doing. And it should be extremely disturbing for those of us who care about the quality of political discourse in this country.

The thing is, that does not mean that Trump is actually in cahoots with Putin. And when prospective members of what we might call the "Trumpenproletariat" hear accusations to that effect, they are not inclined to believe them. Instead, they interpret these warnings as disingenuous, and yet another reason to feel alienated from the mainstream politicians and media figures who espouse them.

We would be in a much less disturbing place as a country if Russian interference were the best explanation for Trump's success. What we have experienced over the past year, however, points to other factors. Besides, who would choose an actor as unpredictable, even irrational, as Trump is, as his pawn? Do we really think that Putin is capable of influencing him in a way that yields predictable benefits for him?

I don't think being disturbed about the bizarre Russian connection to Trump's inner campaign circle absolves him, the Republican Party or the American public of guilt for the Trump campaign.

Is Trump literally on the payroll of the Kremlin? Probably not. Why would they take the risk when he's going to do whatever they want anyway? But Russia clearly recognises that Trump is basically the kind of ignorant internet troll who thinks Putin is tough and macho, and to the extent that he has any beliefs about foreign policy they're manipulatable based on that.  I think it's fairly obvious that Manafort etc. have been steering him in this direction. As for unpredictability, sure, but as we've known for some time Putin's primarily concerned with weakening 'the West' above all else, and the election of Trump would achieve that in dramatic fashion. A human Brexit.

Remember that literally the only platform plank the Trump people edited - while letting the usual Christian right write the rest of of it freely - was about condemning Putin for Crimea.
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Fusionmunster
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« Reply #129 on: July 27, 2016, 03:35:56 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #130 on: July 27, 2016, 03:36:18 PM »

Oh, you've finally seen the light, Oakvale? Did you ever apologize for supporting Drumpf for so long?
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #131 on: July 27, 2016, 03:39:18 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?
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Oakvale
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« Reply #132 on: July 27, 2016, 03:39:22 PM »
« Edited: July 27, 2016, 03:43:28 PM by Oakvale »

Oh, you've finally seen the light, Oakvale? Did you ever apologize for supporting Drumpf for so long?

I would never sincerely have supported Trump, Tony. Yikes. I do think ironic Trump support was, at the time, largely justified given that it was funny to watch him humiliate Marco Rubio or whoever, as the "normal politician" portion of the RNC proved again. There's also something to be said for the idea that nominating Trump lays the Republican Party bare. They can't hide behind OPTIMISTIC SMILING MARCO or MODERATE JEB! this time.

But, yes, I wrote a very long mea culpa on Trump over on AAD a few months back. I think my main issue was a blindness, due to not living in the horrifying 24/7 US media environment, to the corrosive impact the Trump thing was having outside of politics.

e: That blindness was also partly wilful, probably. Hey, it was fun! Best not to think of the implications.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #133 on: July 27, 2016, 03:40:46 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?

This place has gone to hell. I don't exclude my own posts from this judgement.
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Fusionmunster
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« Reply #134 on: July 27, 2016, 03:43:03 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?

I gave my rebut. Im not sure if your confusing me with someone though. I just know that you were being a complete jerk in the DNC thread and I put you on my ignore list. Sadly Oakvale quoted you.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #135 on: July 27, 2016, 03:43:33 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?

This place has gone to hell. I don't exclude my own posts from this judgement.
Eh, it is 2016. The bad elements will purge themselves in 2017 because they only care about the horse race and a chance to express "lol Republicans are so dumb!" or "LOCK 'DER KILLARY UP" to a group of strangers instead of their monolithic group of Facebook zombies.
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Averroës Nix
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« Reply #136 on: July 27, 2016, 03:44:19 PM »

I'm not suggesting that he's in cahoots with Putin. But what's clear is that Putin is backing him

No, it really isn't.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #137 on: July 27, 2016, 03:45:33 PM »

But, yes, I wrote a very long mea culpa on Trump over on AAD a few months back. I think my main issue was a blindness, due to not living in the horrifying 24/7 US media environment, to the corrosive impact the Trump thing was having outside of politics.

e: That blindness was also partly wilful, probably. Hey, it was fun! Best not to think of the implications.

Fair enough. As someone who might directly suffer from a Drumpf victory (far less seriously than most Americans, admittedly, but still), I accept your apology.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #138 on: July 27, 2016, 03:46:42 PM »

What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?

I gave my rebut. Im not sure if your confusing me with someone though. I just know that you were being a complete jerk in the DNC thread and I put you on my ignore list. Sadly Oakvale quoted you.
No you didn't. Oakvale replied, and you just "nah, you're wrong" without even an explanation.

I'm not suggesting that he's in cahoots with Putin. But what's clear is that Putin is backing him

No, it really isn't.
Yeah, this conspiracy theory is the lame type of thing that Trump would trot out. Emailgate had more meat than this, and the FBI made a fair and reasoned judgement on that matter.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #139 on: July 27, 2016, 03:46:56 PM »

I'm not suggesting that he's in cahoots with Putin. But what's clear is that Putin is backing him

No, it really isn't.

It depends what you mean by 'backing'. We can quibble about the extent of involvement. Surely it's evident that Putin would like Trump to win, no?

But, yes, I wrote a very long mea culpa on Trump over on AAD a few months back. I think my main issue was a blindness, due to not living in the horrifying 24/7 US media environment, to the corrosive impact the Trump thing was having outside of politics.

e: That blindness was also partly wilful, probably. Hey, it was fun! Best not to think of the implications.

Fair enough. As someone who might directly suffer from a Drumpf victory (far less seriously than most Americans, admittedly, but still), I accept your apology.

I'm glad to hear that.
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Mister Mets
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« Reply #140 on: July 27, 2016, 03:55:40 PM »

I think Trump critics are playing this one wrong.

With the outrage, undecided voters aren't hearing that Trump is relying on a hostile power. They're hearing that Trump critics are afraid that there is stuff out there that is so bad and disgusting that it could cost Hillary Clinton the election.
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Nathan
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« Reply #141 on: July 27, 2016, 03:56:27 PM »

Painting Trump as some sort of Manchurian candidate sleeper agent is great fun in a hyperbolic just-between-us-leftists sort of way but bad strategy in terms of getting the average voter to believe that there's a problem here. Pointing out that Trump's inner circle is, for reasons still unknown, pushing him in an increasingly unapologetically pro-Russian policy direction that betrays America's treaty obligations, and that he's fundamentally unserious enough about American democratic processes to make this sort of joke (if it is a joke), is a bit of a harder sell in terms of sound-bite-ability, but is, hopefully, demonstrably true enough to stick if it can be sold effectively.
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Averroës Nix
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« Reply #142 on: July 27, 2016, 03:58:32 PM »

Not sure why people are talking about how this will poll or whatever when it's plain that electing Trump would be the greatest gift to Russian imperialism since Churchill and Roosevelt were duped at Yalta. Does that not matter?

It also matters that the Clinton camp is highlighting these claims as a matter of campaign strategy. I think that this makes about as much sense as the idiotic and tone-deaf choice of "AMERICA IS ALREADY GREAT" as a campaign theme.

If Clinton were maintaining a comfortable lead in the polls despite this, it would not bother me so much, but Trump has been increasing his vote share since mid-June. He may be leading on account of a convention bump, but I doubt that Clinton would have a clear lead at this point even if that were not the case.

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I don't think being disturbed about the bizarre Russian connection to Trump's inner campaign circle absolves him, the Republican Party or the American public of guilt for the Trump campaign.

Is Trump literally on the payroll of the Kremlin? Probably not. Why would they take the risk when he's going to do whatever they want anyway? But Russia clearly recognises that Trump is basically the kind of ignorant internet troll who thinks Putin is tough and macho, and to the extent that he has any beliefs about foreign policy they're manipulatable based on that.  I think it's fairly obvious that Manafort etc. have been steering him in this direction. As for unpredictability, sure, but as we've known for some time Putin's primarily concerned with weakening 'the West' above all else, and the election of Trump would achieve that in dramatic fashion. A human Brexit.

Remember that literally the only platform plank the Trump people edited - while letting the usual Christian right write the rest of of it freely - was about condemning Putin for Crimea.
[/quote]

The platform plank is genuinely disturbing, but I'm not sure why it is likely to indicate a unique connection between Trump's campaign and the Kremlin. Trump has gleefully accepted endorsements from extreme-right leaders across the Global North. Whatever inclination he has to align himself with Putin is best viewed in the same light, rather than as an indication that Russia is actively trying to manipulate the outcome of a US presidential election. And I don't doubt that it is also driven in part by the same kind of ignorance that made George W. Bush so eager to enlist Russia as an ally in the "struggle against radical Islamic terrorism."

This is what frustrates me with how we talk about this. It's a bit like people who invent conspiracy theories because Tony Blair made a lot of money off of consulting work in Central Asia, or the Clinton Foundation's donations from places like Saudi Arabia. Yes, all of this stuff is disturbing, but not in the apoplectic  "Manchurian candidate" sense. No, Trump is not literally "committing treason."
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #143 on: July 27, 2016, 03:59:44 PM »

Painting Trump as some sort of Manchurian candidate sleeper agent is great fun in a hyperbolic just-between-us-leftists sort of way but bad strategy in terms of getting the average voter to believe that there's a problem here. Pointing out that Trump's inner circle is, for reasons still unknown, pushing him in an increasingly unapologetically pro-Russian policy direction that betrays America's treaty obligations, and that he's fundamentally unserious enough about American democratic processes to make this sort of joke (if it is a joke), is a bit of a harder sell in terms of sound-bite-ability, but is, hopefully, demonstrably true enough to stick if it can be sold effectively.
The problem is (not you, of course) that the left's capacity for snark and overconfidence is starting to measure levels similar to Fox News on election night '12. Calling Trump a traitor is downright insulting to the intelligence of voters.

There is sooo much juice on Trump to squeeze out, but instead of the tax returns, the threats to free press, free speech, etc, they just want to attack Trump for saying (actually just mouthing) the phrase "bomb the shinks out of 'em."
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Blue3
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« Reply #144 on: July 27, 2016, 03:59:56 PM »

Trump isn't joking.


He's now doubling-down on Twitter.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #145 on: July 27, 2016, 04:05:08 PM »

Trump isn't joking.


He's now doubling-down on Twitter.
It's not that kind of a joke. It isn't just a random quip. He raises ideas for the reactions, which are always more severe among the media than they are among the audience.

I want to know why Putin can't interfere in our elections and Obama can go over and campaign for the Remain side in the Brexit? The same Obama who didn't attempt to undermine Netanyahu and Likud's campaign? Putin plays by the same rules that Obama does, he just has more balls.
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Averroës Nix
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« Reply #146 on: July 27, 2016, 04:09:43 PM »

I'm not suggesting that he's in cahoots with Putin. But what's clear is that Putin is backing him

No, it really isn't.

It depends what you mean by 'backing'. We can quibble about the extent of involvement. Surely it's evident that Putin would like Trump to win, no?

Of course, but less because Trump would align the United States with Russia or any particular Russian interests than because Putin would benefit from an incompetent US President with minimal interest in foreign policy. This difference seems pretty important to me.
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #147 on: July 27, 2016, 04:11:31 PM »

Whatever convention bounce he got is gone and it wasn't even that big to begin with. Trump is his own worst enemy.

Wrong. LA Times - Trump +7, CNN Trump + 3
It was a funny press conference that will not have any negative effect on Trump. He was just being sarcastic. Do Dems have ANY sense of humor?

Those polls were taken before the press conference. This wasn't a joke, not even remotely. But of course everything he does is a joke. When he made fun of a disable reporter, it was a joke. When called Mexicans rapists and murderers, it was a joke. He's a sick man, yet you people cannot see it because you are so blinded.

Literally this. The presidency is not a comedy position, especially when related to sensitive policy proposals receiving national coverage. If you don't understand or respect that, you don't care about our nation one bit.

In the 80's Reagan and Gorbachev often could have a laugh with eachother. I really believe that those personal qualities of both helped bring peace to the world. There is really nothing wrong with humor. I'm sorry the crook hasn't got ANY.

That was different.
Reagan and Gorby were friends and would laugh, when they were together for serious discussion on global or nuclear matters.
Nothing wrong with that, but you can not compare that to today's event .... that is stupid.
trump is acting like a spoiled child who needs attention, and his conduct today is once again unprofessional. There is "nothing wrong" with candidates having the demeanor to conduct themselves in a presidential manner. I'm sorry that this bigot hasn't got ANY.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #148 on: July 27, 2016, 04:17:49 PM »

But, yes, I wrote a very long mea culpa on Trump over on AAD a few months back. I think my main issue was a blindness, due to not living in the horrifying 24/7 US media environment, to the corrosive impact the Trump thing was having outside of politics.

e: That blindness was also partly wilful, probably. Hey, it was fun! Best not to think of the implications.

Fair enough. As someone who might directly suffer from a Drumpf victory (far less seriously than most Americans, admittedly, but still), I accept your apology.

I'm glad to hear that.

Just curious, have other "fellow travelers" recanted as well? I'd like to know which posters I can go back to valuing at least somewhat.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #149 on: July 27, 2016, 04:20:48 PM »

But, yes, I wrote a very long mea culpa on Trump over on AAD a few months back. I think my main issue was a blindness, due to not living in the horrifying 24/7 US media environment, to the corrosive impact the Trump thing was having outside of politics.

e: That blindness was also partly wilful, probably. Hey, it was fun! Best not to think of the implications.

Fair enough. As someone who might directly suffer from a Drumpf victory (far less seriously than most Americans, admittedly, but still), I accept your apology.

I'm glad to hear that.

Just curious, have other "fellow travelers" recanted as well? I'd like to know which posters I can go back to valuing at least somewhat.

The only holdout I can think of is smilo, who I guess was sincere all along? I don't know if anyone else has apologised or whatever but ironic/ratfúcking Trump support is basically non-existent outside of Snowstalker etc I think (and even he's backed down in the last few weeks).

Oh, and Libertas but lol
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