Mother and son in love in N.M. will go to jail to defend their relationship
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  Mother and son in love in N.M. will go to jail to defend their relationship
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Question: Should sexual acts between a mother and adult son be legal?
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#2
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Total Voters: 74

Author Topic: Mother and son in love in N.M. will go to jail to defend their relationship  (Read 5472 times)
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2016, 05:34:22 PM »

Simfan, I'm philosophically in agreement with you on a lot of this, but I think you're not taking seriously the positions of pro-choicers who don't align themselves with some of the more ludicrous and depraved points of view and rhetoric on their side--just as you and I I'm sure agree in rejecting the more nakedly punitive or misogynistic points of view and rhetoric that exist on our side. These people would tend to think that the moral status of the conceptus is based at least partially on the mother's attitude towards it, which might be joyful acceptance and unconditional love or complete killing intent or anything in between. I think that there's definitely a faint perversity to this, but it's perversity of a markedly different order than the sort of blanket rejection of the idea that the unborn have any value or that anyone should care about them that you see in things like the NARAL response to that ad.
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afleitch
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« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2016, 05:36:26 PM »


Are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you seriously not conceive that some people might value the psychological well-being of the woman (and, thereby, how she herself perceives and understands her pregnancy)? No, surely there has to be some sinister amoral intent behind all this. Roll Eyes


^^^

Mental health is a legitimate medical state. A woman's mental state must always be addressed when dealing with pregnancy.

The only way to avoid the harm of pregnancy, if it is a mental harm, is to either use contraception in the first instance or to abort or to induce labour whether viable or unviable. That’s it. If it’s viable, it’s ‘born’; the state of pregnancy has ended. It is no longer an ethical battleground. If it's not viable, it won't ever become viable unless the woman is exposed to increased or sustained suffering.

Opposing abortion because you elevate physical harm over psychological harm by default accepts that morally, you prohibit a woman from taking any action against any physical or psychological harm caused as a result of her pregnancy.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2016, 11:40:16 PM »

Never thought I'd say this, but this thread is a perfect example of "who am I to judge" attitude going too far.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why the consenting relationship itself should be illegal.
Those who engage in parent-child incest are sick and mentally incapable of consent. It is impossible to have a consensual parent-child sexual relationship. Don't be ridiculous.

According to whose psychiatric diagnosis?  Yours?  Their overwhelming contravention of societal norms is not convincing enough for me, in this case, to force a relationship between two adults into illegality.  Your socially authoritarian logic here is the same used to keep homosexuality illegal.

Also, not to get off-topic, but "don't be ridiculous" is a little flattened when coming from somebody supporting Donald Trump.


Never thought I'd say this, but this thread is a perfect example of "who am I to judge" attitude going too far.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why the consenting relationship itself should be illegal.

Multiple people have.

Where?  I've seen "eww I think this is icky so they must be crazy", but nothing that actually addresses my question from a more objective standpoint.
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RI
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« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2016, 11:54:45 PM »

Never thought I'd say this, but this thread is a perfect example of "who am I to judge" attitude going too far.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why the consenting relationship itself should be illegal.

Multiple people have.

Where?  I've seen "eww I think this is icky so they must be crazy", but nothing that actually addresses my question from a more objective standpoint.

Why should "it's icky" not be as valid a reason for policy as anything else?
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Santander
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« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2016, 12:05:49 AM »

According to whose psychiatric diagnosis?  Yours?  Their overwhelming contravention of societal norms is not convincing enough for me, in this case, to force a relationship between two adults into illegality.  Your socially authoritarian logic here is the same used to keep homosexuality illegal.
Uh, no. Come back when you learn how to read.
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Speed of Sound
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« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2016, 12:09:59 AM »

Joe and I must be sharing moral wavelengths recently. Especially given the way they met/their past, I don't see how you can chuck people in jail for this. On what grounds do you jail these people? Clearly such a relationship should be severely discouraged from procreating, very probably through the law, but I'm not sure what danger this relationship is to society otherwise (Joe has the answer already, of course, which is ".......welll, ewww, though.....").
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2016, 02:26:07 AM »

Never thought I'd say this, but this thread is a perfect example of "who am I to judge" attitude going too far.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why the consenting relationship itself should be illegal.

Multiple people have.

Where?  I've seen "eww I think this is icky so they must be crazy", but nothing that actually addresses my question from a more objective standpoint.

Why should "it's icky" not be as valid a reason for policy as anything else?

Because "ickiness" is not an objective opinion?



According to whose psychiatric diagnosis?  Yours?  Their overwhelming contravention of societal norms is not convincing enough for me, in this case, to force a relationship between two adults into illegality.  Your socially authoritarian logic here is the same used to keep homosexuality illegal.
Uh, no. Come back when you learn how to read.

Ooh, spicy!  I've touched a nerve, evidently.  Anyway, are you going to try to address the first part of my post that you didn't bold?  That's the part I would actually care to see addressed.
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afleitch
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« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2016, 04:27:05 AM »

Never thought I'd say this, but this thread is a perfect example of "who am I to judge" attitude going too far.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why the consenting relationship itself should be illegal.

Multiple people have.

Where?  I've seen "eww I think this is icky so they must be crazy", but nothing that actually addresses my question from a more objective standpoint.

Why should "it's icky" not be as valid a reason for policy as anything else?

Vaginal sex is icky. I demand legislation to address this.
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Cassius
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« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2016, 05:18:42 AM »

Practically nothing can be considered an 'objective opinion'.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2016, 05:20:32 AM »
« Edited: August 19, 2016, 05:23:17 AM by I did not see L.A. »

Practically nothing can be considered an 'objective opinion'.

Well duh. That's quite literally an oxymoron.

Believing in objective morality doesn't mean being certain that your opinion on what is right and wrong perfectly corresponds to what is objectively right and wrong.
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Cassius
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« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2016, 05:26:30 AM »

Practically nothing can be considered an 'objective opinion'.

Well duh. That's quite literally an oxymoron.

Believing in objective morality doesn't mean being certain that your opinion on what is right and wrong perfectly corresponds to what is objectively right and wrong.

So do you believe in a knowable right and wrong? My own personal opinion is that such a thing probably does exist, but has been imperfectly revealed to humanity, meaning that, obviously, we all have our own reflections on what is moral and what isn't. However, if you believe in a knowable right and wrong surely you would ensure that your moral beliefs correspond exactly to that objective stance (not a gotcha, just curious).
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2016, 05:39:16 AM »

Practically nothing can be considered an 'objective opinion'.

Well duh. That's quite literally an oxymoron.

Believing in objective morality doesn't mean being certain that your opinion on what is right and wrong perfectly corresponds to what is objectively right and wrong.

So do you believe in a knowable right and wrong? My own personal opinion is that such a thing probably does exist, but has been imperfectly revealed to humanity, meaning that, obviously, we all have our own reflections on what is moral and what isn't. However, if you believe in a knowable right and wrong surely you would ensure that your moral beliefs correspond exactly to that objective stance (not a gotcha, just curious).

I don't think any finite individual could ever have perfect knowledge of right and wrong, no. However, I think all of us, if we sincerely seek it out, can go a long way toward gaining such knowledge, and that we have the obligation to do our best in this regard.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
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« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2016, 06:16:00 AM »

Vaginal sex is icky. I demand legislation to address this.

#StopWarOnVaginas
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2016, 05:24:19 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2016, 06:27:48 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2016, 01:47:40 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.

Birth defects as a result of incest isn't a good enough reason? These people do belong in jail if that's what it's going to take to keep them from reproducing. Heck, are we going to legalize incestuous marriage now if the parties are incapable of reproducing?

In cases like this, this is one pretty big example of where the "Disgusting" argument really does work in favor of banning certain kinds of relationships.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2016, 02:17:06 PM »
« Edited: August 22, 2016, 02:19:37 PM by RINO Tom »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.

HOLY sh**t, LOL, yes they have!  You're just ignoring them.

For one, multiple people have touched on what should be a universally accepted truth: this is not consent, as a son or daughter cannot give true consent to his or her parent by the very nature of the term.  They're inherently unequal.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2016, 03:13:18 PM »

Birth defects as a result of incest isn't a good enough reason?

As I've said twice already in this thread, no, actually, it's not.

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« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2016, 03:24:55 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.

Birth defects as a result of incest isn't a good enough reason? These people do belong in jail if that's what it's going to take to keep them from reproducing. Heck, are we going to legalize incestuous marriage now if the parties are incapable of reproducing?

In cases like this, this is one pretty big example of where the "Disgusting" argument really does work in favor of banning certain kinds of relationships.

can we ban your posts then?
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2016, 06:17:23 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.

Birth defects as a result of incest isn't a good enough reason? These people do belong in jail if that's what it's going to take to keep them from reproducing. Heck, are we going to legalize incestuous marriage now if the parties are incapable of reproducing?

In cases like this, this is one pretty big example of where the "Disgusting" argument really does work in favor of banning certain kinds of relationships.

can we ban your posts then?

Me saying something you don't agree with =/= having sex with your mother. Those are two VERY different things. Even a child could figure that one out.
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Santander
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« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2016, 07:26:27 PM »

When RINO Tom and I are in agreement over a social issue and you're on the other side...
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Blue3
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« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2016, 08:29:26 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.

HOLY sh**t, LOL, yes they have!  You're just ignoring them.

For one, multiple people have touched on what should be a universally accepted truth: this is not consent, as a son or daughter cannot give true consent to his or her parent by the very nature of the term.  They're inherently unequal.
No, and definitely not in this case (reunited years after adoption).

The argument boils down to ickiness.

You know what I found even more icky than incest? Transgenderism. Do I think transgender people should be thrown into jail? No.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2016, 09:19:06 PM »

There is no grey area. It's wrong, and if you disagree, your "morality" is below the level of human dignity.

Exactly. There are plenty of gay friends of mine who called me a bigot because when I hear about a mother and son in a sexual relationship, I want to throw up.

Wanting to throw up is one thing.  Wanting to keep the activity illegal is another, and nobody has yet put forward a convincing argument in favor of that that doesn't just rely on the first point.

HOLY sh**t, LOL, yes they have!  You're just ignoring them.

For one, multiple people have touched on what should be a universally accepted truth: this is not consent, as a son or daughter cannot give true consent to his or her parent by the very nature of the term.  They're inherently unequal.

I said convincing argument.  I've yet to see one.

In an earlier reply to me, you referred to a "natural dynamic" between a parent and their offspring - regardless of the latter's age - that removes consent as we typically understand it.  Can you explain what you mean by that, given that your argument appears to hinge on it?

And in what sense do you see them as "inherently unequal"?  Their age?  That's a given, but once again we're talking about two people both over the statutory age of consent.

The only "universally accepted truth" I see here is the ickiness of it, which believe me I accept too.  But the legality of it is another matter.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2016, 09:20:46 PM »

You know what I found even more icky than incest? Transgenderism.

That's a... problematic opinion.
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Speed of Sound
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« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2016, 10:55:29 PM »

You know what I found even more icky than incest? Transgenderism.
Have you ever met a trans* person? They're normal people, aside from being persecuted brutally and regularly. That's a very disappointing opinion to still see among "Democrats".
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