Do Prisons Without Air-Conditioning Constitute 'Cruel and Unusual Punishment'?

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Prisons in general are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

This too.

What exactly would your guys' alternative be?

Not having them. The prison industrial complex is the worst institution in American history. Much better to end it for good.

Anyway, if we're complaining about air conditioning, we're not acknowledging the much crueler things that go on. That should be the least of concerns if we're stuck with silly reform measures.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Prisons in general are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

This too.

What exactly would your guys' alternative be?

Not having them. The prison industrial complex is the worst institution in American history. Much better to end it for good.

Anyway, if we're complaining about air conditioning, we're not acknowledging the much crueler things that go on. That should be the least of concerns if we're stuck with silly reform measures.

How do you properly punish major crime if not through the use of prisons?

[Senator-elect Spark]

No it doesn't. Criminals lose all of their rights once they are incarcerated. Since they have committed a crime, they no longer have rights.

[Tiger front]

We can see very interesting divide between Democats and Republicans here.

[Antonio the Sixth]

No, but it's an inhumane way to house people in most* of the continental United States.

*There are some places in the United States that are temperate enough that no one other than people with serious health conditions or lack of access to outdoor spaces should need air conditioning. These include all of Upstate New York, for example. Unfortunately, most modern construction ignores passive ventilation and does not even attempt to adapt itself to the conditions of the local environment. Anything built in this fashion needs to be air conditioned as a matter of public health, no matter where it is built.

In my experience (which obviously isn't representative, being almost entirely from the Southwest), 90% of the use of air conditioning in the US is unnecessary, wasteful, harmful to the environment, and actually makes me feel worse than I'd be if the building was left to its natural temperature.

I'm not saying AC isn't necessary in the cases relevant here, just felt like I should point this out.

I agree, but if you're in a poorly ventilated building then you are probably going to be uncomfortable no matter what, and lacking air conditioning during even mild heat would be brutal. Consider how many office buildings in the US lack something as basic as windows that easily can be open and shut. It's ridiculous, but people in this country tend to believe that they are entitled to every cloistered comfort that ample natural resources, cheap energy, technology, and easy credit has made available to them. Which is the only way that the Sun Belt as we know it can exist in the first place.

What temperature is most appropriate is another matter: I am most comfortable at close to 78 degrees when I am sedentary, so the standard 65 or so that public buildings, offices, and commercial spaces tend to maintain is not pleasant for me. Then again, I am usually the first person to add a layer in my office, so my opinion is nowhere near the (obviously wrong, wasteful, and seriously misguided) national consensus on this question.

Very true. The lack of large, openable and/or sensibly placed windows is one of the things that really struck me when I moved in here (my own apartment has a large bay window, but it's a window that faces an inner courtyard in a very tall building, so I don't get very little air or sunlight from it and it really feels like I'm in a bubble).

I'm also more comfortable around 25°C. I actually tend to turn on heating when temperature gets below 22 (which I know is not great either, but I feel like I make up for it by never turning on the AC at any time of the year).

[Antonio the Sixth]

No it doesn't. Criminals lose all of their rights once they are incarcerated. Since they have committed a crime, they no longer have rights.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I don't think it's necessarily unconstitutional for prisons not to have AC, but they ought to have them anyway, especially if they are located in the Sun Belt.  Although even places like Connecticut can get very hot in the summer.

On a related note, I generally agree with Tony that Norwegian prisons are one of the best 'models' for the world.  The so-called "dorm room" prisons might seem nice and luxurious to Americans, but they're mostly designed (at least, if you buy this former prisoner's take on them) that way because they are easier to clean and maintain, there are no occurrences of rape and violence, and they're effective because they isolate prisoners by giving them little reason to leave their "cells."

In other words, your typical Norwegian prisoner is alone for 99% of the time they spend there.  Someone like me (who's used to isolation) could probably survive several years there with little trouble, but for most people it would suck almost as much as being in an American prison.  But all indicators suggest that Norwegian prisons are better than America's.  Why?  Because they prioritize rehabilitating prisoners, other than torturing them which many people (mistakenly) view as the "correct" approach to crime.

(Sorry for going off on a tangent.)

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The point is that these people have committed serious offenses that have led to them losing some of the rights that people are normally accorded. It's not meant to be a walk in the park.

Just because they are prisoners doesn't mean it's OK to treat them like dirt. Time and time again, I see issues of mistreatment or other bs regarding prisoners come up and again see certain folks just shrug it off and say "well they are prisoners after all!", as if that justifies anything and everything.

This is why recidivism is such a problem in America. Many people have such a cavalier attitude towards convicts/felons, as if they are sub-human or something.

     I agree with the value of according basic human rights to prisoners; prison conditions could stand to be improved. My response is to the notion that prison in general constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. That sort of over-the-top rhetoric gets in the way of discussions on practical prison reform.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Not sure about air conditioning.  It depends on the extent of suffering that would cause, and maybe it would depend on the heat in the location.

There should be minimal standards of how prisoners are treated.  Prisons shouldn't be a "walk in the park" and prisoners who commit crime should lose some rights for the time of incarceration, but that doesn't mean that prisoners shouldn't have any rights.

I'm sure some would call my position "moderate hero" but you can punish criminals and still have limits on the extent of doing so.  Someone commits a crime, so inflict a punishment that fits that crime.  Just because a shoplifter may be incarcerated for a little while doesn't mean you get to rip his finger nails out.  It seems that many on this forum fall into either of 2 extreme positions:  Sentence Hitler to some time at a Norwegian resort from some of our more lefty posters, or execute 14-year-olds from our more conservative ones.  I've been called a "moderate hero" for supporting a more moderate criminal justice system, but we can punish criminals without punishing them disproportionately.

Interesting waffle piece.

The correct answer is yes, in most of the continental United States air conditioning is necessary.

LOL NO. If schools without air conditioning are constitutional, so are prisons without air conditioning.

indeed this.  My HS didn't have AC in one of the buildings, nor did one of my grade schools.  I guess 7 year old kids in 1980 were just tougher than prisoners are in 2016.

What states do you guys live in where all the prisoners are let out for summer break?

You guys realize you are actually making a strong argument for air conditioning prisons, right?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

You are just backsolving into an unjustifiable inhumane position.

The point is that these people have committed serious offenses that have led to them losing some of the rights that people are normally accorded. It's not meant to be a walk in the park.

I didn't realize selling weed is a "serious offense" that deserves torture.  I learn something new on Atlas every day.

The point is that these people have committed serious offenses that have led to them losing some of the rights that people are normally accorded. It's not meant to be a walk in the park.

No. They're in jail because they committed a crime. Why should we meet their temperature demands?

I (we're) saying that we don't care if prisoners are mildly discomforted because of heat.

How delightfully barbaric.

Considering the flimsy racist and classist reasons the United States locks up many of its citizens I'm astonished at the number of animals that would suggest people deserve to be subjected to 100+F temperatures.  It is one thing to say it is unfortunate and state budgets are tight right now, but to get a giddy grin on your face and view that kind of torture as a "feature" not a fault is disgusting.

[DavidB.]

In warm places, yes (R), and in general US prisons should be much more safe and livable. It shouldn't be like the Hilton, but it shouldn't be the hell it currently is either.

[Associate Justice PiT]

The point is that these people have committed serious offenses that have led to them losing some of the rights that people are normally accorded. It's not meant to be a walk in the park.

I didn't realize selling weed is a "serious offense" that deserves torture.  I learn something new on Atlas every day.

The point is that these people have committed serious offenses that have led to them losing some of the rights that people are normally accorded. It's not meant to be a walk in the park.

No. They're in jail because they committed a crime. Why should we meet their temperature demands?

I (we're) saying that we don't care if prisoners are mildly discomforted because of heat.

How delightfully barbaric.

Considering the flimsy racist and classist reasons the United States locks up many of its citizens I'm astonished at the number of animals that would suggest people deserve to be subjected to 100+F temperatures.  It is one thing to say it is unfortunate and state budgets are tight right now, but to get a giddy grin on your face and view that kind of torture as a "feature" not a fault is disgusting.

     Yeah, it is self-evident from the context of my post that that is not what I meant. Try harder next time.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

There's a reason schools without AC are for the most part okay. Unless prisoners are getting let out for a 2.5 month vacation every year, the comparison is apples and oranges.

The answer is yes, of course. Especially down south. The level of heat that arises in the summer can be deadly.

[Badger]

Prisons in general are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

This too.

What exactly would your guys' alternative be?

Not having them. The prison industrial complex is the worst institution in American history. Much better to end it for good.

Anyway, if we're complaining about air conditioning, we're not acknowledging the much crueler things that go on. That should be the least of concerns if we're stuck with silly reform measures.

How do you properly punish major crime if not through the use of prisons?

Still waitng for an answer on this.

[Murica!]

Prisons in general are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

This too.

What exactly would your guys' alternative be?

Not having them. The prison industrial complex is the worst institution in American history. Much better to end it for good.

Anyway, if we're complaining about air conditioning, we're not acknowledging the much crueler things that go on. That should be the least of concerns if we're stuck with silly reform measures.

How do you properly punish major crime if not through the use of prisons?

You don't. You remove the social causes of crime or rehabilitate/help those who do not have the ability to control impulsive or violent tendencies.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

LOL NO. If schools without air conditioning are constitutional, so are prisons without air conditioning.

indeed this.  My HS didn't have AC in one of the buildings, nor did one of my grade schools.  I guess 7 year old kids in 1980 were just tougher than prisoners are in 2016.

What states do you guys live in where all the prisoners are let out for summer break?

You guys realize you are actually making a strong argument for air conditioning prisons, right?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

I went to un-air conditioned schools in August in South Carolina.  Granted, every room had big fans to circulate the air and were generally on a more open plan than is common today, but it is possible to do okay in the worst of the summer heat.

[politicallefty]

LOL NO. If schools without air conditioning are constitutional, so are prisons without air conditioning.

I did my best to make sure my high school classes had AC. Generally, only the upstairs classes had AC as well those in the newer Arts wing. When you have to start school in August in a hot climate, someone like you in Minnesota has no idea what true heat is like.

As for prisons, I think there's probably a limit. Lack of AC just because it's a bit warm doesn't constitute cruel and unusual punishment. However, I'm not sure that wouldn't be the case in the heat and humidity of the Deep South. With most people, it seems like heat is a catalyst for aggression. In a prison setting, I would prefer that the prisoners were generally calm and docile. I think that's more likely in an air conditioned environment as opposed to one that is hot and humid.

[Kingpoleon]

LOL NO. If schools without air conditioning are constitutional, so are prisons without air conditioning.

Criminal wellbeing>kids, dummy.

[Wells]

No. They're in jail because they committed a crime. Why should we meet their temperature demands?

How delightfully barbaric.

Considering the flimsy racist and classist reasons the United States locks up many of its citizens I'm astonished at the number of animals that would suggest people deserve to be subjected to 100+F temperatures.  It is one thing to say it is unfortunate and state budgets are tight right now, but to get a giddy grin on your face and view that kind of torture as a "feature" not a fault is disgusting.

I don't have a "giddy grin" on my face thinking of criminals being punished, nor am I an animal. I couldn't really care less about if a prison has air conditioning (which I hope you would get from my post), and it certainly doesn't constitute "cruel and unusual" punishment. Giving prisons air conditioning should be the least of government priorities.

[Kingpoleon]

No. They're in jail because they committed a crime. Why should we meet their temperature demands?

How delightfully barbaric.

Considering the flimsy racist and classist reasons the United States locks up many of its citizens I'm astonished at the number of animals that would suggest people deserve to be subjected to 100+F temperatures.  It is one thing to say it is unfortunate and state budgets are tight right now, but to get a giddy grin on your face and view that kind of torture as a "feature" not a fault is disgusting.

I don't have a "giddy grin" on my face thinking of criminals being punished, nor am I an animal. I couldn't really care less about if a prison has air conditioning (which I hope you would get from my post), and it certainly doesn't constitute "cruel and unusual" punishment. Giving prisons air conditioning should be the least of government priorities.

Frankly, I'm not sure why this is a constitutional issue. I get that most criminals deserve basic human rights to healthy conditions, but I don't mind murderers sweating a bit while they get to spend twenty years on death row and possibly dying waiting for their appeals to end.

[DC Al Fine]

Prisons in general are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

This too.

What exactly would your guys' alternative be?

Not having them. The prison industrial complex is the worst institution in American history. Much better to end it for good.

Anyway, if we're complaining about air conditioning, we're not acknowledging the much crueler things that go on. That should be the least of concerns if we're stuck with silly reform measures.

How do you properly punish major crime if not through the use of prisons?

Still waitng for an answer on this.

I'm curious about this too.

Corporal punishment is an option I suppose, although I doubt that's acceptable to anti-prison posters. Maybe we can sentence murderers to a couple hundred hours community service?

[Ban my account ffs!]

LOL NO. If schools without air conditioning are constitutional, so are prisons without air conditioning.

indeed this.  My HS didn't have AC in one of the buildings, nor did one of my grade schools.  I guess 7 year old kids in 1980 were just tougher than prisoners are in 2016.

Yeah especially when you were at school 24 hrs a day from mid May to mid September!

[Wells]

LOL NO. If schools without air conditioning are constitutional, so are prisons without air conditioning.

indeed this.  My HS didn't have AC in one of the buildings, nor did one of my grade schools.  I guess 7 year old kids in 1980 were just tougher than prisoners are in 2016.

Yeah especially when you were at school 24 hrs a day from mid May to mid September!

Most kids go to school during the hottest part of the day, IIRC. And some schools end in late June or begin in late August when it can still get pretty hot.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Prisons in general are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

This too.

What exactly would your guys' alternative be?

Not having them. The prison industrial complex is the worst institution in American history. Much better to end it for good.

Anyway, if we're complaining about air conditioning, we're not acknowledging the much crueler things that go on. That should be the least of concerns if we're stuck with silly reform measures.

How do you properly punish major crime if not through the use of prisons?

Still waitng for an answer on this.

I'm curious about this too.

Corporal punishment is an option I suppose, although I doubt that's acceptable to anti-prison posters. Maybe we can sentence murderers to a couple hundred hours community service?

Twelve laps round the gym, then two hundred lines of "I must not commit crimes".

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ideally, the best response to any bad deed is to sit down with the person responsible and make them understand why what they did was wrong and the suffering that it has caused. The guilt of knowing what you've done should then be punishment enough in and of itself, and it would actually make people better.

Of course, that almost never works in practice, both because few people have the patience to try and because most people are not interested in questioning the morality their own actions. The existence of prisons is a testament to this failure of humanity's ability to self-correct. They're a necessary evil, but they should never, ever be mistaken for a positive good, and alternatives should be sought whenever possible.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The existence of prisons is a testament to this failure of humanity's ability to self-correct. They're a necessary evil, but they should never, ever be mistaken for a positive good, and alternatives should be sought whenever possible.

And yet you say concerning the death penalty:

Never in any circumstance.

For truly incorrigible criminals, the death penalty is theoretically a potential solution, tho in practice, one that is unlikely to be widely applied.