Opinion on 'burkini' ban?

[Antonio the Sixth]

As I've said before, this is a very good example of why everything that's immoral, dumb, or socially harmful shouldn't necessarily be illegal.

Lol dude you don't even support the full legalization of marijuana.

I've made it very clear that I don't want to put people in jail for smoking marijuana. Similarly, I don't want to put women in jail for wearing an oppressive outfit.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Ironic because its supposed to be against oppression but banning a type of clothing is exactly that. If people choose to wear them and they're comfortable with it, that's fine. What it instead does is piss Muslim women off who want to wear it and sends a message to them that the west is uncomfortable with Islam. Its leftist intolerance.

Is it? Seems like these types of things usually get the most support from right wing secular nationalist types. 

Most people who would be for it are for progressive reasons, progress. The burka is a traditional outfit, therefore I would think conservatives would not be the ones to want to ban it. Not saying all leftists support banning it, and I'm sure you'll find right wingers supporting it for different wrong reasons too.

No. The real reason for it is Islamophobia. While there are left-wingers who support it, they only do so in an (obviously failed) attempt to chase after the votes of the right and far-right, who are the real proponents of these policies. The idea that this has anything to do with social-liberalism (or even with "laïcité") is ludicrous.

Is it? They are using the exact same arguments for the exact same kinds of policies. The xenophobic motive here is obvious, but why would that be inconsistent with a progressive ideology?  If the main concern is social progress, gender equality, secularism, etc, as opposed to pluralism, why wouldn't you seek to exclude culture that has the same characteristics as those you are trying to change in your own society?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ironic because its supposed to be against oppression but banning a type of clothing is exactly that. If people choose to wear them and they're comfortable with it, that's fine. What it instead does is piss Muslim women off who want to wear it and sends a message to them that the west is uncomfortable with Islam. Its leftist intolerance.

Is it? Seems like these types of things usually get the most support from right wing secular nationalist types. 

Most people who would be for it are for progressive reasons, progress. The burka is a traditional outfit, therefore I would think conservatives would not be the ones to want to ban it. Not saying all leftists support banning it, and I'm sure you'll find right wingers supporting it for different wrong reasons too.

No. The real reason for it is Islamophobia. While there are left-wingers who support it, they only do so in an (obviously failed) attempt to chase after the votes of the right and far-right, who are the real proponents of these policies. The idea that this has anything to do with social-liberalism (or even with "laïcité") is ludicrous.

Is it? They are using the exact same arguments for the exact same kinds of policies. The xenophobic motive here is obvious, but why would that be inconsistent with a progressive ideology?  If the main concern is social progress, gender equality, secularism, etc, as opposed to pluralism, why wouldn't you seek to exclude culture that has the same characteristics as those you are trying to change in your own society?

Because most progressives are generally aware of which policies actually help to further the causes they care about, as opposed to policies that just serve to further alienate people you're trying to bring over to your values.

Most of us agree that, in an ideal world, no religion should serve as an excuse promote patriarchal notions of "modesty" and dictate what's acceptable for women to wear. The point is how you get people who have been socialized in a viciously patriarchal context to reject this worldview, and it's ridiculous to claim that these bans help.

[Ebsy]

I really don't get it. Are they banning wetsuits too?

[they don't love you like i love you]

Wetsuits and "modest swimsuits" (like the one I posted above) don't have the same hygiene and safety issues.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Ironic because its supposed to be against oppression but banning a type of clothing is exactly that. If people choose to wear them and they're comfortable with it, that's fine. What it instead does is piss Muslim women off who want to wear it and sends a message to them that the west is uncomfortable with Islam. Its leftist intolerance.

Is it? Seems like these types of things usually get the most support from right wing secular nationalist types. 

Most people who would be for it are for progressive reasons, progress. The burka is a traditional outfit, therefore I would think conservatives would not be the ones to want to ban it. Not saying all leftists support banning it, and I'm sure you'll find right wingers supporting it for different wrong reasons too.

No. The real reason for it is Islamophobia. While there are left-wingers who support it, they only do so in an (obviously failed) attempt to chase after the votes of the right and far-right, who are the real proponents of these policies. The idea that this has anything to do with social-liberalism (or even with "laïcité") is ludicrous.

Is it? They are using the exact same arguments for the exact same kinds of policies. The xenophobic motive here is obvious, but why would that be inconsistent with a progressive ideology?  If the main concern is social progress, gender equality, secularism, etc, as opposed to pluralism, why wouldn't you seek to exclude culture that has the same characteristics as those you are trying to change in your own society?

Because most progressives are generally aware of which policies actually help to further the causes they care about, as opposed to policies that just serve to further alienate people you're trying to bring over to your values.

Most of us agree that, in an ideal world, no religion should serve as an excuse promote patriarchal notions of "modesty" and dictate what's acceptable for women to wear. The point is how you get people who have been socialized in a viciously patriarchal context to reject this worldview, and it's ridiculous to claim that these bans help.

You think that progressives are generally very concerned with not alienating people they consider to hold regressive views?  Is that why they so often mock and shame such people, try to shut down their businesses, get them fired, or don't trust them with educating their children? 
The reason progressives aren't going after women who wear burkas is simply because they are minorities who are feared by right-wingers, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.   Short of that and I can only suspect the attitude would be the same as the Kemalists toward expressions of traditional Islam, or the Calles Law or the Spanish 1931 Constitution against expressions of Catholicism.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The fact that Muslims are minorities that generally face hatred and discrimination for reasons that have nothing to do with the prevalence of regressive and patriarchal views in modern Islam is, indeed, highly relevant to the discussion. As is the fact that you rarely fight oppression by criminalizing the victims of oppression.

[RI]

Wetsuits and "modest swimsuits" (like the one I posted above) don't have the same hygiene and safety issues.

Please explain the "hygiene" issues here. I've yet to find an answer about this.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The fact that Muslims are minorities that generally face hatred and discrimination for reasons that have nothing to do with the prevalence of regressive and patriarchal views in modern Islam is, indeed, highly relevant to the discussion. As is the fact that you rarely fight oppression by criminalizing the victims of oppression.

But surely you'd be criminalizing them for the right reasons, no? Or am I to understand that being an oppressed minority gives one the right to do something otherwise considered oppressive?

(I really don't care about your, y'know, whatever policies; it's obvious that you'd have to defend Islam in a Christian country in order to weaken the existing paradigm; once that has been struck down the regime will no doubt "augment" its methodology in order to weaken all religion. You probably are a legitimate pluralist or something. Or whatever.)

I, personally, am against burka bans due to my desire to create a Coalition of the Truly Reactionary to oppose attempts at secular modernization.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The fact that Muslims are minorities that generally face hatred and discrimination for reasons that have nothing to do with the prevalence of regressive and patriarchal views in modern Islam is, indeed, highly relevant to the discussion. As is the fact that you rarely fight oppression by criminalizing the victims of oppression.

But surely you'd be criminalizing them for the right reasons, no? Or am I to understand that being an oppressed minority gives one the right to do something otherwise considered oppressive?

(I really don't care about your, y'know, whatever policies; it's obvious that you'd have to defend Islam in a Christian country in order to weaken the existing paradigm; once that has been struck down the regime will no doubt "augment" its methodology in order to weaken all religion. You probably are a legitimate pluralist or something. Or whatever.)

I, personally, am against burka bans due to my desire to create a Coalition of the Truly Reactionary to oppose attempts at secular modernization.

Oh for f**k's sake. This is the fourth time in just a few days that I've been accused of being insincere in the views I express - whether it's to please or mimic another poster, to find a "pulpit" for its own sake, or to advance another, more sinister goal than the one I claim to have (this one twice now, thanks to you!). I'm sick of this sh*t. If you don't believe in my good faith, that's your f**king problem. I have better things to do with my time than try to prove it to you.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

ITT: White men who don't speak to Muslim women

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

ITT: White men who don't speak to Muslim women

I had a social work class with several of them. They seemed nice-ish. (except the one that was the president of the campus SWA; she apparently had initiated a random power-grab)

[RI]

Also, if the burkini as such a manifestation of Islamic oppression to women, why has it suddenly become so popular among non-Muslim women worldwide? And don't f**king say "the patriarchy."

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Also, if the burkini as such a manifestation of Islamic oppression to women, why has it suddenly become so popular among non-Muslim women worldwide? And don't f**king say "the patriarchy."

One might even posit that it's because of the opposite of the patriarchy (or whatever).

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Wetsuits and "modest swimsuits" (like the one I posted above) don't have the same hygiene and safety issues.

Please explain the "hygiene" issues here. I've yet to find an answer about this.

Yeah I can't really fathom this. Do people expect beaches to be sterile environments?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

ITT: White men who don't speak to Muslim women

I try not to too use pick-up lines on women with religious headgear if that's what you mean.  Seems in bad taste somehow.

[Storebought]

Overdone and ludicrous -- meaning both the burkini itself, and the ban on them.

That said, western women once wore full-bodied bathing attire at the beach until very recently, at least the 1950s or so. Can a compromise be found so that Muslim women can wear those older style bathing suits and not bring negative attention on themselves from the police?

[DC Al Fine]

Also, if the burkini as such a manifestation of Islamic oppression to women, why has it suddenly become so popular among non-Muslim women worldwide? And don't f**king say "the patriarchy."

This is a good example of how 'patriarchy' has been misused to the point of meaninglessness. Putting frat boys and guys who won't let their daughters be educated together in the same box as if they have the same worldview is ridiculous.

[Indy Texas]

Couldn't they just wear something like this instead?



I mean anything who thinks that's too revealing (I've seen women preaching at church wearing less than that) has some major issues...

I don't think you entirely "get" how integral covering one's hair is to the traditional Islamic idea of modesty - the idea of going out with your hair visible isn't that much less scandalous than wandering around topless to them.

Intentionally or not, this is very similar to when the Soviet Union banned head coverings in the Central Asian republics in the name of SOCIALIST PROGRESS.

[Indy Texas]

Overdone and ludicrous -- meaning both the burkini itself, and the ban on them.

That said, western women once wore full-bodied bathing attire at the beach until very recently, at least the 1950s or so. Can a compromise be found so that Muslim women can wear those older style bathing suits and not bring negative attention on themselves from the police?

It sounds like you're arguing that dressing conservatively is okay as long as the conservative clothing was designed by white people.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, if the burkini as such a manifestation of Islamic oppression to women, why has it suddenly become so popular among non-Muslim women worldwide? And don't f**king say "the patriarchy."

This is a good example of how 'patriarchy' has been misused to the point of meaninglessness. Putting frat boys and guys who won't let their daughters be educated together in the same box as if they have the same worldview is ridiculous.

The fact that patriarchy can take a myriad of forms to adapt itself to its cultural context is precisely what makes it so hard to combat. Some thought the "sexual revolution" would finally bring about gender equality, but, while it did help matters in many respects, it's clear that patriarchal views of women can survive and thrive in a "sex-positive" society.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Also, if the burkini as such a manifestation of Islamic oppression to women, why has it suddenly become so popular among non-Muslim women worldwide? And don't f**king say "the patriarchy."

This is a good example of how 'patriarchy' has been misused to the point of meaninglessness. Putting frat boys and guys who won't let their daughters be educated together in the same box as if they have the same worldview is ridiculous.

This is like somebody saying the word 'precipitation' is meaningless because snow and rain are different

[progressive85]

I think it's a violation of religious expression.

[Хahar 🤔]

Wetsuits and "modest swimsuits" (like the one I posted above) don't have the same hygiene and safety issues.

Please explain the "hygiene" issues here. I've yet to find an answer about this.

Non-whites are inherently dirty.

[DC Al Fine]

Also, if the burkini as such a manifestation of Islamic oppression to women, why has it suddenly become so popular among non-Muslim women worldwide? And don't f**king say "the patriarchy."

This is a good example of how 'patriarchy' has been misused to the point of meaninglessness. Putting frat boys and guys who won't let their daughters be educated together in the same box as if they have the same worldview is ridiculous.

This is like somebody saying the word 'precipitation' is meaningless because snow and rain are different

I dispute the analogy. There are sufficient differences in worldview between male dominated libertines and actual patriarchs to indicate they are different ideologies. Put another way, Barack Obama and Rosa Luxemberg might agree on two or three things and they are both opposed by the right, but calling them both socialists is just silly.