If you were living in Austria ...

[Tender Branson]

A law partially banning facial veils where only the eyes remain visible instead of the full face (favoured by the conservative ÖVP), in exchange for a law that would fully legalize gay marriage in Austria (favoured by the Social Democrats).

Both ÖVP and SPÖ are the governing coalition.

Do you support this (progressive) trade ?

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=221414.msg5225592#msg5225592

[LLR]

If I lived in a completely made-up place, I would not support this.

[Tender Branson]

Yes, because it would be good for women's rights and gay rights.

[Boston Bread]

I would support this trade.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

No way.   If they were fining or prosecuting gay couples for holding hands in public it would be different, since that would be a comparable situation.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If I lived in a completely made-up place, I would not support this.

Yeah, you might as well ask me how I feel about Neverland's new anti-piracy laws.

[Kingpoleon]

I doubt it.

[NeverAgain]

No. Gays don't deserve happiness, nor do women. (Normal, ff)

[aross]

Tender...the entire second half of the original article you posted is dedicated to why a ban is an awful idea. If the niqab is a symbol of female oppression (which, on balance, it is - which doesn't mean it can't be worn by some women of their own choosing), will banning it liberate these women? No, their husbands or family will simply ban them from going outside at all, withdraw them from school and isolate them further. There is such a thing as a parallel society in (small parts of) Austria, and something like this is just going to widen the gap further and strengthen the narrative of extremists. That is before we even get into the issues of personal freedom and the state targeting a particular religious group.

Anyway, as someone who actually lives in an area where I regularly (as in most days) see women wearing niqab on the street, how on earth would this even be enforced? Are we going to have police patrolling the streets just for this? Clothing inspectors? (Actually, to the French here, how are things done over with you? Though IIRC the number of Islamic women wearing niqab is far smaller in France.)

And finally, it should be noted that Tender has massively exaggerated the story. Sebastian Kurz, Foreign Minister, ÖVP rising star and noted human turd proposed a burka a few days ago. The only SPÖ politician to respond so far has been the chairman of the parliamentary group, Andreas Schieder, who proposed this trade-off. No indication so far that a) this is the official position of the SPÖ or b) the ÖVP is willing to accept it. If Kurz were too support this deal, he would make himself highly unpopular with the ÖVP old guard - not ideal when you're trying to become leader in a party where they still have a lot of influence.

[DavidB.]

Probably not going to happen for reasons outlined by Aross (great to have you here), but I'd be all for it, of course: I support both SSM and a ban on niqabs and burqas. Basically this:

Yes, because it would be good for women's rights and gay rights.

[Tender Branson]

Tender...the entire second half of the original article you posted is dedicated to why a ban is an awful idea. If the niqab is a symbol of female oppression (which, on balance, it is - which doesn't mean it can't be worn by some women of their own choosing), will banning it liberate these women? No, their husbands or family will simply ban them from going outside at all, withdraw them from school and isolate them further. There is such a thing as a parallel society in (small parts of) Austria, and something like this is just going to widen the gap further and strengthen the narrative of extremists. That is before we even get into the issues of personal freedom and the state targeting a particular religious group.

Anyway, as someone who actually lives in an area where I regularly (as in most days) see women wearing niqab on the street, how on earth would this even be enforced? Are we going to have police patrolling the streets just for this? Clothing inspectors? (Actually, to the French here, how are things done over with you? Though IIRC the number of Islamic women wearing niqab is far smaller in France.)

And finally, it should be noted that Tender has massively exaggerated the story. Sebastian Kurz, Foreign Minister, ÖVP rising star and noted human turd proposed a burka a few days ago. The only SPÖ politician to respond so far has been the chairman of the parliamentary group, Andreas Schieder, who proposed this trade-off. No indication so far that a) this is the official position of the SPÖ or b) the ÖVP is willing to accept it. If Kurz were too support this deal, he would make himself highly unpopular with the ÖVP old guard - not ideal when you're trying to become leader in a party where they still have a lot of influence.

Oh, there are easily enough measures that could be taken to enforce it: The police already has the power to forcefully remove the facial veil of a woman for IDing purposes. But the woman shouldn't really be the target of these laws, but the patriarchalic, fundamentalist male turds (yes, these are the real turds, not Kurz) behind these women. If they order "their" women to remain home, their welfare should be cut to zero - or they could face prison, for repeat offending and non-compliance. Or deportation, the best option.

If the will to enforce it is there, it can be done. Not wiped away with the usual excuses ...

I also find it funny that there are so many self-styled proponents of women's rights on this forum from the Left, but when it comes to actual laws they are being pussy about it - because they want to shield their beloved Muslims (= their future Leftist voters ...)

[Intell]

Yes, since I support both. The niqab, burqa and other conformist Islamic clothing should be banned, for the integration and assimilation of muslims, from religious Islamic cultures, to a liberal secular nation. Since the Niqab, Burqa, Haik and face veils are also a symbol, of conformity, denies a woman of her own self-worth, and is deeply patriarchal clothing. Now, what happens, when when a woman should wear such things, their clothing should be removed in cases of faceveils, or the covering of the face, clothing should be removed from the area, but the woman should not be punished, or is should be punishment-less crime, if done, the police needs to explain the need, not to wear such things.  Preferably, a ban on the sale and buying of such clothing, should be banned, with punishments on the seller, not the buyer.

However, there needs to be more to done or force, to integrate male Muslims into a secular society, with beliefs of secularism, and liberal nationalism, not Islamic theocracy. If unable to do so, after multiple failures, jail time, or if possible deportation is necessary. Refugees/Immigrants also need to be integrated, and only those who show they can adhere to a secular society should be accepted, and these refugees/immigrants should show a commitment to the adherence of the values of secularism, and liberal nationalism.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Oh cool like France. What a successful story that is!

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Yes, since I support both. The niqab, burqa and other conformist Islamic clothing should be banned, for the integration and assimilation of muslims, from religious Islamic cultures, to a liberal secular nation. Since the Niqab, Burqa, Haik and face veils are also a symbol, of conformity, denies a woman of her own self-worth, and is deeply patriarchal clothing. Now, what happens, when when a woman should wear such things, their clothing should be removed in cases of faceveils, or the covering of the face, clothing should be removed from the area, but the woman should not be punished, or is should be punishment-less crime, if done, the police needs to explain the need, not to wear such things.  Preferably, a ban on the sale and buying of such clothing, should be banned, with punishments on the seller, not the buyer.

However, there needs to be more to done or force, to integrate male Muslims into a secular society, with beliefs of secularism, and liberal nationalism, not Islamic theocracy. If unable to do so, after multiple failures, jail time, or if possible deportation is necessary. Refugees/Immigrants also need to be integrated, and only those who show they can adhere to a secular society should be accepted, and these refugees/immigrants should show a commitment to the adherence of the values of secularism, and liberal nationalism.

 



Let's just stop for a moment and consider this suggestion that police forcibly remove clothing from women. 


And what this clothing represents and what you are telling the police to do with it.  I'm sure that will really endear these women and the men in their community to these secular liberal values.

[Tender Branson]

Let's just stop for a moment and consider this suggestion that police forcibly remove clothing from women. 

Police has every right to forcefully remove a veil from a person's face, if they are unwilling to remove it themselves for an ID check. Police need to know who they are dealing with. That counts for all people, not just Muslims, but also protesters etc.