Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus (ACLC)

[Max Power]

I think that you don't. The argument "A FETUS IS A LIVING HUMAN BEING!!!11111 ABORT ZE GAY FETUSES FOR JESUS!!!!!!111111 DON'T MUDR ZER CHILDRN!!!!" is absolutely idiotic.

[Q]

Jake, would you consider joining us here in the ACLC?

Your views on abortion, even if you wind up disagreeing with what we eventually adopt as a platform plank, are welcome, as we are a diverse group.  Your perspective during such debates, I feel, will strengthen the final platform.  A lively discussion of the issues will be good for all of us.

[Max Power]

Jake, would you consider joining us here in the ACLC?

Your views on abortion, even if you wind up disagreeing with what we eventually adopt as a platform plank, are welcome, as we are a diverse group.  Your perspective during such debates, I feel, will strengthen the final platform.  A lively discussion of the issues will be good for all of us.

If so, I'd like to forward a motion to hold a Caucus vote on his membership.

[Jake]

I think that you don't. The argument "A FETUS IS A LIVING HUMAN BEING!!!11111 ABORT ZE GAY FETUSES FOR JESUS!!!!!!111111 DON'T MUDR ZER CHILDRN!!!!" is absolutely idiotic.

Then why do you continue to post it?

Q - Thanks for the invite, but I find fault with a number of platform positions, half or more, and even more so with some of the members. I'll pass for now.

[Ebowed]

Jake, would you consider joining us here in the ACLC?

Your views on abortion, even if you wind up disagreeing with what we eventually adopt as a platform plank, are welcome, as we are a diverse group.  Your perspective during such debates, I feel, will strengthen the final platform.  A lively discussion of the issues will be good for all of us.

If so, I'd like to forward a motion to hold a Caucus vote on his membership.

If it's going to be that way, can we hold a Caucus vote on whether or not you can be a member?  You keep putting words in both mine and Jake's mouths; when did anyone mention aborting gay fetuses?  Quit bringing up random liberal talking lines to dodge questions.

[Speed of Sound]

Jake, would you consider joining us here in the ACLC?

Your views on abortion, even if you wind up disagreeing with what we eventually adopt as a platform plank, are welcome, as we are a diverse group.  Your perspective during such debates, I feel, will strengthen the final platform.  A lively discussion of the issues will be good for all of us.

If so, I'd like to forward a motion to hold a Caucus vote on his membership.

If it's going to be that way, can we hold a Caucus vote on whether or not you can be a member?

i believe that being able to request a caucus vote on somones membership was put into our original 'laws'. you could tecnically call an expulsion vote, but i doubt it would be very successful. after all, Max Power was just expressing his opinion that we should put serious consideration into allowing him in. i find nothing wrong with that. nor would i find anything wrong with you calling an expulsion vote, you would never get me to vote in favor of him leaving, however.

[Ebowed]

I wasn't being completely serious in suggesting an expulsion.  I just think it's cocky for him to request a caucus vote on Jake's membership just because Jake doesn't support third trimester abortions.  Barring extreme circumstances, caucus votes on requested membership should not be used at any whim.

[Max Power]

Jake, would you consider joining us here in the ACLC?

Your views on abortion, even if you wind up disagreeing with what we eventually adopt as a platform plank, are welcome, as we are a diverse group.  Your perspective during such debates, I feel, will strengthen the final platform.  A lively discussion of the issues will be good for all of us.

If so, I'd like to forward a motion to hold a Caucus vote on his membership.

If it's going to be that way, can we hold a Caucus vote on whether or not you can be a member?

i believe that being able to request a caucus vote on somones membership was put into our original 'laws'. you could tecnically call an expulsion vote, but i doubt it would be very successful. after all, Max Power was just expressing his opinion that we should put serious consideration into allowing him in. i find nothing wrong with that. nor would i find anything wrong with you calling an expulsion vote, you would never get me to vote in favor of him leaving, however.

Thanks, LiberalPA, you're a true friend.

[Speed of Sound]

Jake, would you consider joining us here in the ACLC?

Your views on abortion, even if you wind up disagreeing with what we eventually adopt as a platform plank, are welcome, as we are a diverse group.  Your perspective during such debates, I feel, will strengthen the final platform.  A lively discussion of the issues will be good for all of us.

If so, I'd like to forward a motion to hold a Caucus vote on his membership.

If it's going to be that way, can we hold a Caucus vote on whether or not you can be a member?

i believe that being able to request a caucus vote on somones membership was put into our original 'laws'. you could tecnically call an expulsion vote, but i doubt it would be very successful. after all, Max Power was just expressing his opinion that we should put serious consideration into allowing him in. i find nothing wrong with that. nor would i find anything wrong with you calling an expulsion vote, you would never get me to vote in favor of him leaving, however.

Thanks, LiberalPA, you're a true friend.

no problem. just standing up for what i believe in.

[Max Power]

I wasn't being completely serious in suggesting an expulsion.  I just think it's cocky for him to request a caucus vote on Jake's membership just because Jake doesn't support third trimester abortions.  Barring extreme circumstances, caucus votes on requested membership should not be used at any whim.

First:

Freedom of Speech
The ACLC holds that the ability to express one's views without retaliation from the government is a hallmark of a free society. We believe that freedom of speech and of expression is vital, and that the government should not endeavor to hamper it. We feel that even the most controversial opinions are constitutionally protected, and should not be banned or restricted by the government.

Second, I requested a vote on Jake because he does not live up to the principles of the Caucus. And Preston said we should abort gay fetuses. And pardon me if I appeared cocky to youm, Mr. Ebowed, I was merely pointing out the fact that I disagreed with what you said. Next time I will discuss what I see as its faults with civil libertaries, okay?

[Speed of Sound]

I wasn't being completely serious in suggesting an expulsion.  I just think it's cocky for him to request a caucus vote on Jake's membership just because Jake doesn't support third trimester abortions.  Barring extreme circumstances, caucus votes on requested membership should not be used at any whim.

i understand what you are saying, but the by-laws state that a member can call a vote if they believe that the membership should be re-considered. thats what was done here.

[Ebowed]

Anyway, getting back to Q's proposed second draft, I think the entire thing is great, except the Abortion and Sexual Freedom planks.  (For the former, my opposition to it is obvious, for the latter, it doesn't make an exception for incest.)  On the abortion plank, I would prefer that we leave the issue alone altogether and only focus on contraception, but Emsworth is the policy chair and I could live some sort of compromise.  But the current plank, which implies that abortion and contraception are the same, and sets no limits, is just too much for me.  (I hate to be the thorn on an otherwise smooth rose, if anyone thinks I'm bringing this up too much.)

And Casey, what did the freedom of speech plank have to do with what I said about calling caucus votes?  Yes, I agree with the freedom of speech plank; that is why I do not advocate making it hard for people like Jake to join this caucus.

[Speed of Sound]

And Casey, what did the freedom of speech plank have to do with what I said about calling caucus votes?  Yes, I agree with the freedom of speech plank; that is why I do not advocate making it hard for people like Jake to join this caucus.

i believe he is trying to say that he should have the right to voice his opposition with no fear of being punished.

[Ebowed]

I don't dispute that but I think it's ironic that his freedom of speech would give less freedom to Jake or anyone else who disagrees with him on abortion.

[Max Power]

Yes, I agree with the freedom of speech plank; that is why I do not advocate making it hard for people like Jake to join this caucus.

I put it there because I have a right to free speech. And about the abortion plank, I'd be willing to compromise, but I suggest we hold a vote.

[Ebowed]

Holding a vote would be a good idea.  Caucus members could choose on a plank that is decidedly pro choice (current plank), pro choice for the first half of pregnancy, neutral on the issue (not mentioned in the platform), or decidedly pro life.

[Speed of Sound]

Holding a vote would be a good idea.  Caucus members could choose on a plank that is decidedly pro choice (current plank), pro choice for the first half of pregnancy, neutral on the issue (not mentioned in the platform), or decidedly pro life.

i like that idea.

[Jake]

Second, I requested a vote on Jake because he does not live up to the principles of the Caucus. And Preston said we should abort gay fetuses. And pardon me if I appeared cocky to youm, Mr. Ebowed, I was merely pointing out the fact that I disagreed with what you said. Next time I will discuss what I see as its faults with civil libertaries, okay?

Can you differentiate between the name Preston and Jake. Seems pretty easy to do. Maybe you should try?

[Akno21]

Adaption
The ACLC supports the right of all "eligible" (I need help here, what should the general requirements for adaption be?) people to adapt children. We believe that the parent's sexuality should play no part in whether they recieve a child.

[Emsworth]

I don't mind separating the plank on abortion and contraception into two separate planks. Also, a vote could be held on whether the ACLC should be completely pro-life, pro-choice in the first, the second, or the third trimester, or completely pro-choice.

[MHS2002]

This is just a suggestion, but maybe you should put a death penalty plank in the justice section of the platform.

[Ebowed]

Sounds good to me.

Something like this--

PROPOSED PLANK ONE (PRO LIFE)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the right to life of all humans at the point of conception.  We are wholeheartedly opposed to the legalization of all forms of induced abortion and infant euthanasia and seek to end the decriminalization of abortions throughout Atlasia.

PROPOSED (LACK OF) PLANK TWO (NEUTRAL)
No plank.

PROPOSED PLANK THREE (PRO CHOICE 1ST TRIMESTER)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the constitutional right of women to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy in the first trimester.  We oppose the legality of abortions performed after the first trimester, except in cases where the life of the mother is severely at risk.

PROPOSED PLANK FOUR (PRO CHOICE 2ND TRIMESTER)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the constitutional right of women to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy through the first two trimesters.  We oppose the legality of third trimester abortions except in cases where the life of the mother is severely at risk, and support reasonable restrictions on abortions such as parental notification for women under the age of 18 who seek an induced abortion.

PROPOSED PLANK FIVE (PRO CHOICE)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the legality of abortion until birth, as we find that the fetus is not a legal citizen.  We feel that the government should not attempt to impose its moral values on the People by banning any abortions; instead, the decision should be left to the woman.  We also oppose restrictions such as partner and parental consent or notification.

PROPOSED PLANK SIX (OPEBO) (JUST FOR FUN)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports and encourages abortions performed at any time during the pregnancy, as well the full legality of infant euthanasia.  The government must not oppress its citizens by enforcing prudish restrictions on abortion or infanticide.

[Speed of Sound]

This is just a suggestion, but maybe you should put a death penalty plank in the justice section of the platform.

we would probably have to hold a vote on that, too.

[Frodo]

PROPOSED PLANK ONE (PRO LIFE)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the right to life of all humans at the point of conception.  We are wholeheartedly opposed to the legalization of all forms of induced abortion and infant euthanasia and seek to end the decriminalization of abortions throughout Atlasia.

PROPOSED (LACK OF) PLANK TWO (NEUTRAL)
No plank.

PROPOSED PLANK THREE (PRO CHOICE 1ST TRIMESTER)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the constitutional right of women to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy in the first trimester.  We oppose the legality of abortions performed after the first trimester, except in cases where the life of the mother is severely at risk.

PROPOSED PLANK FOUR (PRO CHOICE 2ND TRIMESTER)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the constitutional right of women to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy through the first two trimesters.  We oppose the legality of third trimester abortions except in cases where the life of the mother is severely at risk, and support reasonable restrictions on abortions such as parental notification for women under the age of 18 who seek an induced abortion.

PROPOSED PLANK FIVE (PRO CHOICE)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports the legality of abortion until birth, as we find that the fetus is not a legal citizen.  We feel that the government should not attempt to impose its moral values on the People by banning any abortions; instead, the decision should be left to the woman.  We also oppose restrictions such as partner and parental consent or notification.

PROPOSED PLANK SIX (OPEBO) (JUST FOR FUN)
The Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus supports and encourages abortions performed at any time during the pregnancy, as well the full legality of infant euthanasia.  The government must not oppress its citizens by enforcing prudish restrictions on abortion or infanticide.

My personal position on abortion is closest to plank four, but it would be best for the good of this caucus to adopt plank two as it is the most likely to attract consensus and prevent a possible rift in the caucus between pro-life and pro-choice members.  Therefore I personally recommend the caucus adopt the second plank, and not say anything at all about abortion in the platform until we all can agree on some sort of compromise.       

[Ebowed]

There was an anti death penalty plank but several members were opposed to it.  The current platform, which includes a plank on "Rights of Convicted Felons," as well as a plank supporting the right of juries to be able to choose life in prison without the possibility of parole as an option for serious crimes, is fairly strong, though it does not outright come out against capital punishment.  I wouldn't be opposed to holding a vote on the issue as well, but keep in mind that the absense of any mention of the death penalty in the platform is not pro death penalty but more likely neutral.