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Author Topic: Candidates and Religion  (Read 15957 times)
MAS117
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« on: December 25, 2003, 03:35:20 pm »
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Today Howard Dean came out and said he was putting more about God in his speeches in the South. I was suprised to hear that he is married to a Jew and his children were raised Jewish cause I know he is a Congregationalist. Kerry and Clark have also came out and said that they have Jewish ties. Clark's father was Jewish, and Kerry has found out that his grandparents were Jewish even though he is a Catholic now. Lieberman every knows is a Orthodox Jew. Al Sharpton is a minister, Rep. Kucinich is Catholic, so is Carol Moseley Braun and Gen. Clark, Gephardt is Baptist, and Sen. Edwards is Methodist.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2003, 03:57:43 pm »
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In my opinion a candidate's religion isn't much of an issue, unless they're a crazy zealot like Pat Robertson.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2003, 04:10:12 pm by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
tweed
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2003, 05:14:19 pm »
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I don't care what religion you are unless it changes your views on the issues.
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CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2003, 05:15:45 pm »

In my opinion a candidate's religion isn't much of an issue, unless they're a crazy zealot like Pat Robertson.
If a zealot in your opinion is someone who holds steadfast in their Faith. Then I am proud to be one. True Faith does not change. GOD NEVER CHANGES, so a person who is diligent in their Faith and walks uprightly is a nut? You need to re-evaluate your thinking.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2003, 05:21:15 pm »
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In my opinion a candidate's religion isn't much of an issue, unless they're a crazy zealot like Pat Robertson.
If a zealot in your opinion is someone who holds steadfast in their Faith. Then I am proud to be one. True Faith does not change. GOD NEVER CHANGES, so a person who is diligent in their Faith and walks uprightly is a nut? You need to re-evaluate your thinking.

This is possibly the wrong time of year to have this sort of debate, but I must defend myself there. You've either misinterpreted what I said, or twisted my words around before adding some hasty personal judgement (I'm sorry but I find it quite laughable that you think you can paraphrase my value- and belief system from one sentence I've written). Either way, what you've outlined is not my definition of a "zealot". My definition applies to someone who makes statements such as:

Quote
Every society which has embraced homosexuality -- normalized it, legitimized it, et cetera, embraced it as part of their culture -- every one of those societies has gone down in flames. And if we want to destroy the United States of America, take it down, this is the best way to do it. So the homosexuals will have managed to win what's known as a pyrrhic victory -- they may win their temporary battle, but they'll lose the war 'cause they will destroy the society, and that's happening.
-Pat Robertson

Or

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The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.
-Pat Robertson

Or...

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How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?
-Yep, Pat Robertson.

How precisely is this guy not a nutcase?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2003, 05:42:10 pm by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
DarthKosh
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2003, 09:16:59 pm »
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Today Howard Dean came out and said he was putting more about God in his speeches in the South. I was suprised to hear that he is married to a Jew and his children were raised Jewish cause I know he is a Congregationalist. Kerry and Clark have also came out and said that they have Jewish ties. Clark's father was Jewish, and Kerry has found out that his grandparents were Jewish even though he is a Catholic now. Lieberman every knows is a Orthodox Jew. Al Sharpton is a minister, Rep. Kucinich is Catholic, so is Carol Moseley Braun and Gen. Clark, Gephardt is Baptist, and Sen. Edwards is Methodist.


Dean is just pandering to try to get votes in the south.
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agcatter
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« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2003, 09:48:04 pm »
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....and it is absolutely pathetic.
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Deltabgjim
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2003, 04:28:23 am »
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....and it is absolutely pathetic.

It's absolutely pathetic when Dean tries to use religion in his campaign. When Dubya went to Bob Jones University in 2000, it was brilliant. I see....
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2003, 04:32:09 am »
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I'm intrigued that Dean is a congregationalist. That faith has a strong tradition in Georgia in particular. Many congregational churches (and Presbyterians, Episcopals and Methodists who are loosely associated to them) abound along the historic coast and in Atlanta. The Jewish influence should also play well in Atlanta and Savannah. A lot of Reformed Christians (Presby, Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, Lutheran, etc.) are getting turned off by the evangelical movement that GWB is so ga-ga over.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2003, 06:22:46 am »
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I'm intrigued that Dean is a congregationalist. That faith has a strong tradition in Georgia in particular. Many congregational churches (and Presbyterians, Episcopals and Methodists who are loosely associated to them) abound along the historic coast and in Atlanta. The Jewish influence should also play well in Atlanta and Savannah. A lot of Reformed Christians (Presby, Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, Lutheran, etc.) are getting turned off by the evangelical movement that GWB is so ga-ga over.

Interesting.
I'm part of the Reformed Faith myself and I can't stand W's fondness for the "happy clappy" wing of Christianity, although I didn't like him anyway!
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2003, 10:12:01 am »
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Dean is just pandering to try to get votes in the south.
This is no different from how George Bush has used religion to gain political momentum.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2003, 10:15:47 am »
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I don't care what religion you are unless it changes your views on the issues.

I would agree with that. Still, someone who can be thinking and open-minded, while having a strong faith (like Tony Blair) would get my respect and admiration.
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2003, 01:10:10 pm »
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I don't care what religion you are unless it changes your views on the issues.

I would agree with that. Still, someone who can be thinking and open-minded, while having a strong faith (like Tony Blair) would get my respect and admiration.
You mean also like Jimmy Carter?
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jmfcst
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2003, 01:34:21 pm »
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Christopher Michael: <<My definition applies to someone who makes statements such as:...every society embracing homosexuality has been destroyed...The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women....How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, etc...>>

I don't understand the connection with drunkards and peace, but today's feminist agenda is certainly immoral.

Concerning the part about every country embracing homosexuality going down in flames...there are also a lot of countries that have gone done in flames without the homosexuality factor.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2003, 01:41:07 pm »
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I don't care what religion you are unless it changes your views on the issues.

I would agree with that. Still, someone who can be thinking and open-minded, while having a strong faith (like Tony Blair) would get my respect and admiration.

How does Blair's acceptance of homosexuality agree with his Christian faith?  Is it logical for a Christian to disagree with the bible?  Blair, like many Christians, has deceived himself into thinking that God makes side deals with those unwilling to accept his instruction.

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." (Gal 6:7-8)
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2003, 01:52:44 pm »
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Jmfcst,

I am not a Christian, so I would like you to clarify something for me.  If you accept homosexuals, are you a bad christian?  I would like to hear your answer.
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migrendel
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2003, 02:19:15 pm »
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This is a broader question than that presented. It is the question of what divides us as a people. When a person becomes a member of a religion, they make an innately personal decision to commit themselves to that faith's precepts. It is a morally profound decision, and an individual's autonomy in that matter must be respected. We are all called upon to pick our nation's leaders. To keep people free to make decisions about personal creed, we must elect individuals who respect personal morality. For example, we can decide issues like school prayer and abortion by this method. In the matter of school prayer, our law is designed this way. Any child who wishes to pray can in our schools. We support the individual liberty of conscience in this way. But in a free society, having the teacher, the figure of authority, coercively lead the little and impressionable children in prayer must be swiftly rejected. On the issue of abortion, no woman who thinks it heinous or sinful is required to end the pregnancy she lovingly carries. Yet when a woman is forced to the raw edges of human existence, the law is in no position to decide that she may not decide the shape of everything to come by ending a vastly unwanted pregnancy. This shows equal respect unto those who are pro-life as those who are pro-choice by truly making them free to choose. I have seen candidates discuss things like that, and say that they oppose such things because they are wrong. In whose eyes? Surely their's and their church's, but not in the eyes of everyone. Many people are horrified by the idea of homosexuality gaining acceptance. They say it flies in the face of the Bible and its traditions, but one must always ask: Do I force you to take a male lover? Do I say that you must tell your children that this is right? I do not, and if I did, I would be arrogant and heavy-handed. But I wish the same courtesy. I wish to be able to make choices that are contrary to your ways of thinking, and without your interference. This thinking seems relatively simple, and quite practical, so why shouldn't it be applied to our leaders? It would seem to be logical to elect candidates who, despite their personal misgivings, will give you the same gamut of choices as society allowed them. The only proper way to answer the question posed by MAS117 at the beginning of this very discussion is to say, religion is only relevant to a politician if they let it be.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2003, 02:26:50 pm »
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I want a Christian (hopefully JNF) to answer my question, because I want to know what he meant/if it is true.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2003, 02:30:42 pm »
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Jmfcst,

I am not a Christian, so I would like you to clarify something for me.  If you accept homosexuals, are you a bad christian?  I would like to hear your answer.

I wouldn't say it makes one a "bad" Christian.  They've simply allowed themselves to be deceived.   Not to mention that they are contradicting their own faith....if their faith is not defined by the bible, then what defines it?  Did they invent their own religion?

Taking a purely logical point of view, contradicting one's own faith is contradicting one's self.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 02:34:51 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2003, 02:43:24 pm »
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Thank you for answering my question.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2003, 03:20:55 pm »
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Jmfcst,

I am not a Christian, so I would like you to clarify something for me.  If you accept homosexuals, are you a bad christian?  I would like to hear your answer.

I wouldn't say it makes one a "bad" Christian.  They've simply allowed themselves to be deceived.   Not to mention that they are contradicting their own faith....if their faith is not defined by the bible, then what defines it?  Did they invent their own religion?

Taking a purely logical point of view, contradicting one's own faith is contradicting one's self.

I misread your question...I thought it asked " If you accept homosexualITY, are you a bad christian?" instead of  "If you accept homosexuals, are you a bad christian?"

I don't know what level of "acceptance" you are referring to.  

Accepting them as human beings?...of course I do.

Accepting them as being born into the same system as sin as me?...of course.  

Accepting them as fit for leadership?...absolutely not.   Neither would I accept a heterosexual who justifies fornication as fit for leadership.

Getting back to your question...Any Christian who thinks someone who justifies their opposition to the guidelines of the bible as fit for leadership is purposely deceiving themselves.  They are turning logic on its head by allowing the blind to lead.  Such a Christian that "accepts" unrepentent sinners as leaders is himself sinning.  

Does "accepting" unrepentent sin make you a "bad" Christian?  The bible doesn't use the term "bad Christian",  but it does use terms like "faithful servant".  And accepting things contrary to God's word is not what I consider faithful.  The faithful are suppose to "shun evil", not "accept" it:

Isa 5:20-21 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.


« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 03:22:28 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2003, 03:28:56 pm »
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Accepting them as fit for leadership?...absolutely not.  Neither would I accept a heterosexual who justifies fornication as fit for leadership.

So Henry Hyde, Newt Gingrich, and Bob Livingston (all three of whom I greatly respect) are all unfit for leadership and I presume you will do everything within your power to oppose them as much as you do homosexuals?  I also presume that Strom Thurmond is equal with homosexuals too with you now, huh?
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jmfcst
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2003, 03:36:59 pm »
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Accepting them as fit for leadership?...absolutely not.  Neither would I accept a heterosexual who justifies fornication as fit for leadership.

So Henry Hyde, Newt Gingrich, and Bob Livingston (all three of whom I greatly respect) are all unfit for leadership and I presume you will do everything within your power to oppose them as much as you do homosexuals?  I also presume that Strom Thurmond is equal with homosexuals too with you now, huh?

Setting aside Bob Livingston, whom I believe has displayed too much of a temper problem to be a leader in the first place, not to mention being an idiot for throwing his name into the hat for Speaker of the House in the first place....

If Henry Hyde, Strom Thurmond, and Newt Gingrich were unrepentant of their actions, then "YES", I do NOT think they are fit for leadership.  I would still trust them to run errands (like being the local dog catcher), but I certainly wouldn't allow them to lead people.


« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 03:40:07 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2003, 03:53:11 pm »
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I don't see why a politician's stance on fornication is so important to you.  There are hundreds of more important issues facing America today than the issue of fornication.
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in a mirror, dimly lit
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2003, 04:04:34 pm »
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I don't see why a politician's stance on fornication is so important to you.  There are hundreds of more important issues facing America today than the issue of fornication.

Fornication probably costs this country hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars per year.  But the impact of fornication and/or homosexuality wasn't my point.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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