Why are libertarians associated with the right?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Because individual liberty is a right-wing concept?

I'd assert the exact opposite. Strange.

[IceAgeComing]

My experience with Libertarians (limited to a few folk that I knew at uni and an agonising day manning the stall for the uni society that I was social secretary of which was next to the Classical Liberal society who were saying things that annoyed me, and then they started stealing the various sweets and stuff that we had out to attract people without asking which was really rather rude) is that they emphasise the economic parts of their platform a lot more than the "social" (for lack of a better word) parts, and since generally economic policy is the most important issue in any election its natural that they are associated with the right, since they both argue for similar economic policies.  Libertarianism isn't really as popular here though as it is in the US (probably because we have more publicly funded services that are very popular like the NHS; and an ideology that's main aim is to get rid of them is never going to get that much support) it could be different in the States.

Libertarians believe in smaller government

I agree that Libertarians support vague concepts that have no real meaning, its nice to see some rare honesty

Like I support a decentralised state with as much power as possible being devolved to as low a level as possible: I could argue that means that I support "small government".  Its a nonsense buzzword that means absolutely nothing, like any use of "common sense solutions" by any candidate for political office ever.

[diptheriadan]

Social Liberalism* is entirely different from Social Libertarianism. Social Libertarianism wants freedom, whether bad or good, they want it. Social Liberalism doesn't want that. Social Liberalism wants Social Justice. In fact, Any form of modern Liberalism is mostly 'Justice' based. They don't want the freedom to discriminate or to run your business a certain way like Libertarians do, they want 'justice'. Justice to blacks, justice to gays, justice to women, justice for workers, justice for anything that it deems to be oppressed.

It like back in the 1960s, Barry Goldwater didn't want discrimination, he just didn't want the government to force people to not discriminate. Most of the Southern Segregationists and Conservatives liked this and started to swing to Goldwater. As time went on they started to push their views on the Conservative movement and it started to morph from a proto-Libertarian movement to what it is today.


*-Modern Liberalism

[Figueira]

Everyone thinks that government should be "no bigger than it needs to be."

[‼realJohnEwards‼]

Because individual liberty is a right-wing concept?

I'd assert the exact opposite. Strange.

Individual liberty is neither left-wing or right-wing, it is its own dimension.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The perceived rise of libertarianism is proof that Conservatism as a mainstream became flabby minded and short-sighted as communism rapidly careened downhill. Suddenly, all the mechanisms built up to ensure the Reds weren't in control became suspect. An active foreign policy, to ensure domestic companies have a leg-up and aren't trodden on by foreign populists? A large public sector, in particular the military, that ensures that a lucky portion of the population could find stable and honourable employment? A strong and armed police to dispel internal dissent? A powerful welfare state? Powerful paternalistic organisations with a higher causr than worshipping Mammon? Why have any of them?

Of course this is nonsense. I am a capitalist in the sense that it seems to be the most effective way we have yet discovered for running an advanced economy; but I fully acknowledge that it would rapidly collapse if libertarians start abolishing foundations of Capitalism Inc in tbe hopes it would fly upwards.

And if they were in power and started dismembering all the fail safes we have, well all that idealistic libertarianism stuff would crumble; and the old roght allies (thr church, the police) would step in as useful allies. And libertarianism would accept itself as a rightist movement.

[muon2]

Libertarianism strongly emphasizes freedom of choice and individual decisions in political, economic and social settings. This can be closely paired with the concept of self-reliance.

Self-reliance was a core principle of Lincoln's and so it also became part of the thinking of the early GOP. During the Great Depression, the GOP again turned towards self-reliance as one of its counterpoints to the New Deal. Reagan built much of his campaign on themes of self-reliance. Given how self-reliance is so deep-rooted in the Pub philosophy and so easily associated with libertarianism, it isn't surprising that libertarians tends to be viewed more as right than left.

[Mr. Smith]

Both complain about big government and regulations. The end result is "I have mine, ha ha eff you" either way.

Naturally my philosophy became the exact opposite.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

Isn't left-libertarianism basically just social democracy individualism with an adamant rejection of Bloomberg-style nanny statist policies, legal drugs and prostitution, hating the NSA (& TSA, IRS, etc etc) and private citizens still being allowed to own most guns? I mean that's not exactly divergent enough to constitute a separate ideology.

Especially when over half of liberals probably agree with at least some aspect of that.

FTFY

[RINO Tom]

Libertarianism strongly emphasizes freedom of choice and individual decisions in political, economic and social settings. This can be closely paired with the concept of self-reliance.

Self-reliance was a core principle of Lincoln's and so it also became part of the thinking of the early GOP. During the Great Depression, the GOP again turned towards self-reliance as one of its counterpoints to the New Deal. Reagan built much of his campaign on themes of self-reliance. Given how self-reliance is so deep-rooted in the Pub philosophy and so easily associated with libertarianism, it isn't surprising that libertarians tends to be viewed more as right than left.

Bingo.  That's why it's so dumb to look at things like "who supported states' rights at the time?" or "who supported infrastructure spending?"  It's the motive (and not the method) that's important to deciphering ideology, IMO.  The GOP of Lincoln's day supported federal spending on necessities like railroads to allow entrepreneurs and skilled, talented Americans to thrive in a changing world; the GOP of Romney's day opposes increased federal spending on things like welfare because it sees it as folks taking advantage of the system and not choosing to lift themselves up.  Whatever one may think of that last viewpoint, the two are perfectly compatible, and both fit with the broadly "conservative" economic view that has prevailed in one party or another since the Federalists; Libertarians largely share this philosophy.

[angus]

Why are libertarians associated with the right?

Dude, it's because they are on the right.  

For example, consider this the Political Matrix scores, which can be linked to with the PM button above.  1045 posters have taken the quiz, and here are the average economic scores by party affiliation:

    Democratic        -4.13      
    Republican         +4.39
    Independent        -0.65
    Libertarian         +5.14
    Green                  -5.94
    Constitution        +4.76
    Other                -3.87
    Decline to State   -0.48

Bear in mind that positive scores are further right, and negative scores left.  Sure, it's a small (and self-selected) sample, but it should be obvious that at least among the posters in this forum, and by the standards of the Political Matrix test, Libertarians are the rightmost group.  Even Constitution party people, who are considered right-wing nuts, are not as far right as Libertarians.  This is only one data set, but I encourage to find other data and you'll see a strong correlation of self-identification with the LP with economically conservative benchmarks.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

Why are libertarians associated with the right?

Dude, it's because they are on the right.  

For example, consider this the Political Matrix scores, which can be linked to with the PM button above.  1045 posters have taken the quiz, and here are the average economic scores by party affiliation:

    Democratic        -4.13      
    Republican         +4.39
    Independent        -0.65
    Libertarian         +5.14
    Green                  -5.94
    Constitution        +4.76
    Other                -3.87
    Decline to State   -0.48

Bear in mind that positive scores are further right, and negative scores left.  Sure, it's a small (and self-selected) sample, but it should be obvious that at least among the posters in this forum, and by the standards of the Political Matrix test, Libertarians are the rightmost group.  Even Constitution party people, who are considered right-wing nuts, are not as far right as Libertarians.  This is only one data set, but I encourage to find other data and you'll see a strong correlation of self-identification with the LP with economically conservative benchmarks.

Where do you see the averages, and how different are they for the social side (what I really associate conservatism with)?

[Buffalo Bill]

People think about and vote on economics more and that's where Libertarian and Republican candidates agree for the most part.

[Goldwater]

Why are libertarians associated with the right?

Dude, it's because they are on the right.   

For example, consider this the Political Matrix scores, which can be linked to with the PM button above.  1045 posters have taken the quiz, and here are the average economic scores by party affiliation:

    Democratic        -4.13      
    Republican         +4.39
    Independent        -0.65
    Libertarian         +5.14
    Green                  -5.94
    Constitution        +4.76
    Other                -3.87
    Decline to State   -0.48

Bear in mind that positive scores are further right, and negative scores left.  Sure, it's a small (and self-selected) sample, but it should be obvious that at least among the posters in this forum, and by the standards of the Political Matrix test, Libertarians are the rightmost group.  Even Constitution party people, who are considered right-wing nuts, are not as far right as Libertarians.  This is only one data set, but I encourage to find other data and you'll see a strong correlation of self-identification with the LP with economically conservative benchmarks.

Where do you see the averages, and how different are they for the social side (what I really associate conservatism with)?

Here is what Angus is talking about.

[muon2]

Why are libertarians associated with the right?

Dude, it's because they are on the right.  

For example, consider this the Political Matrix scores, which can be linked to with the PM button above.  1045 posters have taken the quiz, and here are the average economic scores by party affiliation:

    Democratic        -4.13      
    Republican         +4.39
    Independent        -0.65
    Libertarian         +5.14
    Green                  -5.94
    Constitution        +4.76
    Other                -3.87
    Decline to State   -0.48

Bear in mind that positive scores are further right, and negative scores left.  Sure, it's a small (and self-selected) sample, but it should be obvious that at least among the posters in this forum, and by the standards of the Political Matrix test, Libertarians are the rightmost group.  Even Constitution party people, who are considered right-wing nuts, are not as far right as Libertarians.  This is only one data set, but I encourage to find other data and you'll see a strong correlation of self-identification with the LP with economically conservative benchmarks.

Where do you see the averages, and how different are they for the social side (what I really associate conservatism with)?

It's only since Reagan that social conservatism was associated with the Pubs and hence with the right. And its really only since the 90's that it has been strongly associated with one side as the southern Dems and their philosophical kin left that party. As I noted earlier libertarian economics has ties to the Pubs and the right back to the New Deal.

[angus]

Where do you see the averages, and how different are they for the social side (what I really associate conservatism with)?

Ah, but you used the word "right" in your question.  If you want to know about cultural issues, that's a different issue entirely.  The whole point of these dual-axis categorizations (Political Matrix, Political Compass, etc.) is to separate the left-right characterization from the anarchy-authority scale characterization.  Libertarians are on the right, without doubt, but that's only one piece of the label.  The other piece is how they motivate with regards to the cultural issues that do not, or only indirectly and insignificantly, affect one's bank account.  On that scale, Libertarians are the most libertarian.  (no surprise there.)  Also, it never seemed illogical to me that someone who favors rightist economic policy would also favor limited government interference in personal matters, since both stem from an ideology of self-reliance.

A bit off-topic, but I prefer a triaxial parameterization.  I think left-right questions about taxes, immigration, trade policy, and the like form one reasonable set of metrics, and I think the up-down axis which depends upon answers to questions about gay rights, drug legalization, or end-of-life issues is reasonable, but apart from those should be foreign policy.  I recognize that labor protectionism, military power projection, the Bush Doctrine, the Carter Doctrine, and other iconic ideologies involving foreign policy are deeply intertwined with domestic economic ideologies, but I know too many people who may be characterized as favoring leftist or rightist domestic economic policy, but whose regard for foreign diplomatic or military involvement is harder to predict.

[angus]

I won't bother linking it because Goldwater already has, but you can find investigate average "economic" and "social" scores from the Political Matrix.  You can also look at the specific scores of each member on a cartestian plot above the table.  (By the way, I don't see the cartesian graph today.  I get a JSON parse error.  Are you seeing that as well?  Maybe I need to download a newer version of some software.)

Here's a screenshot of the table:



Note that you can add your own score once you take the test.  It seems that only a small subset of atlas posters and erstwhile atlas posters have actually bothered to do this.  Greater participation would give us a better sense of cross-tabulation. 

As you can see, Libertarians are the rightmost group on the left-right scale, and they are penultimate on the liberal-illiberal scale.  Greens have the most extreme average score on that up-down axis.  You could call the libertarians the Liberal Right, whereas the Greens, at least among those in this forum who have posted a score, form the Liberal Left.  (Think:  John Locke vs. Noam Chomsky.  Both would probably have large negative "social" scores on this test, but one would be on the far right and the other on the far left.)   I do think you need to separate in your mind Left vs. Right from the other parameter, call it anarchy-authority, or liberal-illiberal, or whatever.  The whole point of these biaxial charts are to remind you that the two axes are not necessarily related.  For example, my "social score" is probably many standard deviations outside the mean, and pretty close to both the Green Party and the Libertarian Party average.  Unfortunately, neither is a good fit for me because the Greens are on the Left and the Libertarians on on the Right, while I am a centrist, or a Moderate Hero in the parlance of Atlasia.  As far as I know, no party is a good fit for me, which is fine because I'm not crazy about the idea of being a member of a cult in the first place.

[Slander and/or Libel]

This is very interesting, angus. Thanks for going into detail on it.

I'd say that in my experience, even though the libertarians show up as very far to the "left" on their social scores, they tend to prioritize economic issues far more than social issues when it comes to advocacy and voting.

[Zarn]

If you use left and right to mean economic/financial positions, libertarians are further to the right than most conservatives, much further to the right than nationalists/nativists, and the margin is even greater with liberals.

If you use it as an overall indicator, then half (rough estimate) the libertarians are pro-life and some are socially conservative (just with a lot less top-down action). It would likely make libertarians lean right. Despite the whole War on Terror/ Enduring Freedom stuff, an aggressive foreign policy is not necessarily left or right. I think combined Libya demonstrates that it is not restricted to one or the other.

In terms of government and size, libertarians theorize that the less funding that government has, the less intrusive it can be in any aspect of life, whether that be financial, economic, social, domestic, or foreign. Democrats push for larger budgets. There is no 'starving the beast' that way. The most crucial issue to many libertarians is the Federal Reserve.

[angus]

This is very interesting, angus. Thanks for going into detail on it.

I'd say that in my experience, even though the libertarians show up as very far to the "left" on their social scores, they tend to prioritize economic issues far more than social issues when it comes to advocacy and voting.

I think that has been my experience as well.

Also, if you like the politics quizzes, don't forget all these. 

[dead0man]

This is very interesting, angus. Thanks for going into detail on it.

I'd say that in my experience, even though the libertarians show up as very far to the "left" on their social scores, they tend to prioritize economic issues far more than social issues when it comes to advocacy and voting.

I don't know, it may lean one way or the other, but it's certainly very close.  I'd guess it actually leans more on the social side than the economic side, but I maybe biased a bit.  Gay marriage, guns and pot are just as important as free trade and less regulation.  Everything flows from the mindset that people should be able to (generally) do what they want as long as they ain't hurting nobody that doesn't want to be hurt.  It doesn't matter if that happens in the bedroom or the boardroom.

I just checked Reason Magazine's last few dozen articles linked to from Facebook.  There certainly isn't an economic bias there.  Lots of making fun of Trump and over sensitive college students.  A little Johnson, a little climate change (is that social or economic?), a little weed.  A little economics too sure, but it was countered by a little cop bashing.  I'm certainly more in the weed, guns and whores side, it's a lot more fun than the side discussing TPP and zoning.

[Slander and/or Libel]

This is very interesting, angus. Thanks for going into detail on it.

I'd say that in my experience, even though the libertarians show up as very far to the "left" on their social scores, they tend to prioritize economic issues far more than social issues when it comes to advocacy and voting.

I don't know, it may lean one way or the other, but it's certainly very close.  I'd guess it actually leans more on the social side than the economic side, but I maybe biased a bit.  Gay marriage, guns and pot are just as important as free trade and less regulation.  Everything flows from the mindset that people should be able to (generally) do what they want as long as they ain't hurting nobody that doesn't want to be hurt.  It doesn't matter if that happens in the bedroom or the boardroom.

I just checked Reason Magazine's last few dozen articles linked to from Facebook.  There certainly isn't an economic bias there.  Lots of making fun of Trump and over sensitive college students.  A little Johnson, a little climate change (is that social or economic?), a little weed.  A little economics too sure, but it was countered by a little cop bashing.  I'm certainly more in the weed, guns and whores side, it's a lot more fun than the side discussing TPP and zoning.

For sure, there are outlets that have pretty broad focus on all sides. Radley Balko is a prominent libertarian, but he's almost exclusively on the police abuse beat, and he's pretty indispensable in that world.

But it's rather telling that the Libertarian party is running two former Republican governors this year. That they've run Ron Paul, a Republican congressman, in years past. Now I know that Libertarian=/=libertarian, and that's no small point. But there's some correlation.

I wonder if maybe we're saying/seeing the same thing, but through different lenses. What might look to me like libertarians prioritizing economic over social issues might look to libertarians like saying Republicans agree with them on economics more than Democrats agree with them on social issues, not that they don't care about social issues.

A real part of the issue here is that the system just doesn't give libertarians the opportunity or responsibility to put their money where their mouth is as far as enacting their preferred policies, so the ones who want their votes to have an electoral impact have to make a choice between left and right, and it seems like disproportionately they feel loosely attached to the right rather than to the left.

[angus]

Lots of making fun of Trump and oversensitive college students.  A little Johnson

That's a funny read.

[dead0man]

A real part of the issue here is that the system just doesn't give libertarians the opportunity or responsibility to put their money where their mouth is as far as enacting their preferred policies, so the ones who want their votes to have an electoral impact have to make a choice between left and right, and it seems like disproportionately they feel loosely attached to the right rather than to the left.

Libertarians might not be getting elected, but "libertarian" policy does pass from time to time.  Gay marriage, guns and weed are all important issues (at least they are to libertarians) heading in a libertarian direction.

[Slander and/or Libel]

A real part of the issue here is that the system just doesn't give libertarians the opportunity or responsibility to put their money where their mouth is as far as enacting their preferred policies, so the ones who want their votes to have an electoral impact have to make a choice between left and right, and it seems like disproportionately they feel loosely attached to the right rather than to the left.

Libertarians might not be getting elected, but "libertarian" policy does pass from time to time.  Gay marriage, guns and weed are all important issues (at least they are to libertarians) heading in a libertarian direction.

I mean, insofar as libertarians have some overlap with the left and right, then sure, "libertarian" policy gets passed fairly often. But we don't govern in a libertarian direction, and it doesn't seem credible to give libertarians credit for something that they were incidental to, in terms of standing at the levers of power to make happen.